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Turbo29DFC
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Menard replacement / Screw Tire developement thread
According to the 2007 rules of AMEC, the amount of "screws" per linear foot is capped at 35. The rule reads up to a #12 screw with 1/4 exposer. I am unclear.
1.Does this mean the traction devise you use (stud, screw, bolt, whatever?) need be no larger in diameter then a #12 screw?
2.Does it mean simply a #12 screw is the only traction aid allowed specifically?
3.Would tires such as the ones we have experimented with be legal? Why or Why not?
4.Do the same limitations apply to stud diameter and protrusion?
5.What about stud or screw tips? Can they be hallow, pointed, jagged, V'd?
6.Do "teeth" on a t-nut or outer securing devise for a screw/stud count as a stud/screw? (visualize a square washer with the four corners bent upward)
This a good start. I really think we should clearify this now before it becomes an issue this winter. We all seek a faster cheaper way. Perhaps someone like me wants to run a set of screwed tires? How does the club veiw the rule? A crystal clear understanding is needed. Please assist.
#29
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[Mike just corrected title spelling].
Last edited by Mike Kamm, 2/11/2008, 9:39 am
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12/1/2006, 10:09 pm
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Dave 48A
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
Good questions Darryl, I have been mulling this over myself because a lot of us are going to try screwing tires this year. We did have a lot of discussion at previous meetings and this will certainly be a topic of discussion a week from Monday at the next AMEC meeting. I did place a call Bruce Carlton Chief of tech and he will be making a post on this. This year will be a little experimental with tires for sure. We owe it to the club to find an alternative to the Menard especially if they will not be available. Unfortunately this means that some guys may run away with a few races until we get the tire rules sorted out 100%. Look forward to Bruce’s comments and interpretations on the tire rules as they were discussed and the spirit of the rules voted on.
Dave Burnham
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12/2/2006, 10:45 am
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bcarlice1
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
To Daryl and all AMEC members:
As chief of tech I will give my answer to the questions. If the club disagrees we can take it up at the December meeting.
First we (AMEC) are on a quest to develop a replacement tire for the Menard tire because it has become quite expensive and also that it may not or probably will not be available after this year acording to our contact person at Menard. For this reason the tire rules are somewhat flexible for the time beeing. That beeing said, it must also be stated that we may say no to any specific development that shows too much traction or is too expensive or too labor intensive. Our object is to develop a replacement tire for the Menard that gives roughly the same traction and is less expensive in the combination of dollars and labor.
In that light we should stick to readily available tires at normal prices for the base tire and then use standard available reasonably priced hardware to stud it. That would not preclude a recapped tire that though not available everywhere now, the club could have them made in quantity at a reasonable price if they proved to be what we want.
As an answer to some of Daryls specific questions: threaded fasteners or sheet metal types of fasteners are OK, the T nuts are allowed for stabilizing the screw in the tire and not for additional traction, thus the prongs must be in the rubber not protruding out, screws probably should not be slotted, knotched or hollowed out as this probably would be too labor intensive for a final club tire.
In general be reasonable about the tire development; you will know if what you are thinking about is going to be too expensive (dollars and labor) to be acceptable. This does not preclude beeing inventive however. New ideas are often the breakthrough we are looking for.
Bruce Carlton
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12/2/2006, 11:14 am
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Turbo29DFC
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
Gentlemen and All AMEC "Menard" Class Racers,
I must say I understand the problem you'll have as tech inspector. This is going to be interesting.
I must proclaim my sincere concern however regarding the openess to the rule and how "fairness" is going to be inturpreted.
Why? Well when we're lucky we have a seven weekend season. Knowing this but knowing the tire rules would be opinioniated, creates a serious situation. You see when seeking a championship in our series you need be in top shape everyweek. If an opinion allows one tire but not another or it takes two weeks to "catch-up" in construction like the owner of the specific tire that works, its over for that year.
In addition what I consider labor intensive is different for another individual based on tools available and experience. How can you ever be fair on this call?
Yet another thought would suggest, because we are seeking a replacement for the menards and someone takes the time and money to create a possibility, is the club really going to say "NO" you can't use those? That doesn't work either.
another, This close to the season presents a problem too. What about all experimental tires racers have already built? The time remaining for the start of the season makes it unfair to both sides of the fence. a specific rule may rule out those who have something already and or wonlt allow time for others to build the same like and kind tire to compete with. We have no time.
I beleive its the clubs responsibility to define in a much more exact manner the perameters of acceptance.
As I see it you either have to throughly define what is and what is not, which will be nearly impossible not knowing the performance of each type of tire that could be constructed to another of different construction or hold fast to the rule we have, which we all know is not the long term solution nor works well enought to attend to. Hence a very difficult position.
Some thoughts:
1. Allow what ever for testing for 08' but do not score cars with anything other then menards for 07 running in any race. Meaning: Only races finished with Menards tires get points for class and championship. Elsewise your foregoing the points in lue of research and development. NOW this would also be a good time for the club to measure, weigh, calculate labor time and cost to build for each tire created by each member. The club would mandate its allowance to throughly inspect and log the properties of any "non menard" construction in order to properly compare apples to apples for each tire design.
2. Change the scoring system for experimental tired cars. Allow more points to menard cars knowing that experimental tires will blow away menards in competition.
How to do this??
Don't anyone mention the come to the meeting stuff, I think in the end this type of forum and concensus produces better thought, more thorough communication and no tempers due to the preception of non verbal cues in a face to face situation. I have tried to offer some ideas. I really don't know what will work or the best solution. I just know that something must be done and specific very soon. Fortunately we have some pretty smart people around here. LEts see what we can do huh?
#29
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12/2/2006, 3:30 pm
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Dave 48A
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
Darryl, the message board is a great place to get ideas going but it will never take the place of the thing were not supposed to mention that happens the second Monday night of the month at 7:30 PM in Johnstown at the Rainbow restaurant.
I don’t think we will be changing the scoring system, we had a bunch of e-mails back and forth this week about scoring and points and it takes the point guy Dave Reulet 5 to 8 hours per week to do them, any more complications than we already have in the scoring and points would be not a good thing.
Are you saying to not experiment with tires until 08'? I think we will need something in place by 2008. More than likely there will not be enough Menard tires to get every one thru this season if we have 5 to 8 weekends.
Some of the tires that we experimented with last year were not good at all so I don't think all screw tires will dominate the Menard tire. I personally made a set of screwed tires that I only ran one time they were so bad. I know Brian Seyfried ran one or two sets and they were also not as good as the Menard tires.
I don't think the way Bruce stated it that any tire that dominates one race will be thrown out, the guy may be asked to remove or shorten some screws but it is pretty unlikely any will be told not to be used at this time. We need a plan and we need one fast unless someone goes and buys the tire making equipment from Menards and starts making tires. That’s a very big investment that only a very wealthy guy like John Menard would do.
Any and all votes on the stuff regarding the tire rules would be done at the m......g (note I didn't mention it) Hope everyone can attend that thing what ever it is Monday the 11th of December.
Dave B
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12/2/2006, 8:01 pm
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Turbo29DFC
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
Dave, I understand. but your normal meeting attendance would suggest the majority of the club cannot make the location or the time. I thought we could really punt it around here for a bit and then see what becomes of it. I'm sure no matter what comes of it, someone won't be happy and thats the breaks. But everyone has instant access to this board.
I didn't suggest no experiemental tires till 08' just not scoring them for class and championship points when run in 07'. Gives time to sort out what could work or not. In the end this is going to be a big deal. If Menards go away some of the fun may as well.
I know I'm interested in designing a new tire thats good and reliable. Maybe the club could create a committee and offer some funds to try a few things?? That would be good regulated oppurtunity but limited in ideas by the size of the group. Or maybe we could all write a design, and submit them to the committee for the committee to agree on three or so to try.
This one may be our biggest hurdle yet. I'll bet well figure something out.
Where is the president on the is subject?
Keep it going. Spell it out kick it, toss it, roll it and throw it against the wall and see what sticks.
#29
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12/2/2006, 9:10 pm
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Mike Kamm
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Re: clarification on screw rule needed.
I'm not claiming to have any answers to this puzzle yet, but I'd like to chime in on one point:
Bruce Carlton wrote:
"Our object is to develop a replacement tire for the Menard that gives roughly the same traction and is less expensive in the combination of dollars and labor."
Darryl wrote: "Allow more points to Menard cars knowing that experimental tires will blow away menards in competition.
I think it's important to keep in mind that it is not our goal to increase the amount of traction than what the Menards offer. More traction is accomplished by chewing more ice. That sounds like something we probably shouldn't be seeking in these times of "global warming". Plus we all know that more traction means more $$ need to be spent to be competitve.
[If money was no object, we'd be buying the Menard tire making equipment and forgetting about building our own tires.]
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12/2/2006, 9:57 pm
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Turbo29DFC
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
I completely agree.
However the rule allows for 35 studs per linear foot. My thirteen inch menards have 21. This is a 66% increase in over studs. A calculation hard to ignore.
We need something simple to produce and inexspensive to build that stands up.
At you can imagine my mind has been churning at this some time now.
Do you agree that 66% more screws/studs then a standard menard would inevitably give more traction?
#29
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12/2/2006, 10:17 pm
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Mike Kamm
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Re: CLEARIFICATION ON SCREW RULE NEEDED
quote:
Turbo29DFC wrote:
Do you agree that 66% more screws/studs then a standard menard would inevitably give more traction?
Well, the reason we came up with the increase is because the home builts that people have tried so far [that were built to the old 28 per linear foot rule], were not as quick as Menards. And if they're not as quick and we've got both running at the same time, no one would want to develope them. Obviously we need to have developement increase not decrease, hence the added screws to get them up to speed. The thinking all along was to use the screws and T-nuts that are currently being tried. No thought was given to bending up ears on washers for more traction was being considered. That came from the Darryl Carl natural born "racer thinking" mind [which won't come as a surprise to anyone who knows you]. 
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12/2/2006, 10:39 pm
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chutch84
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Evolution
I well remember building screwed tires while racing with CNYIRA...yes ,it's hard work,but one can be very creative with Tire brand choice, tread patterns, "Screw" patterns (placement) and so on. the biggest thing I remember was the Tech inspecters measuring your studs and sending you back to your pit to get thwem "ground" down to the legal length!!! there has to be an easier way.That's what was great about the MENARDS,it was a spec tire that everyone ran on . Guys had to be more concerned about their handling issues and then the horsepower to get the job done!
we have beat on this drum for a couple years now. No one has come up with the perfect solution yet!! This year may find that solution!!!It's going to be interesting indeed. I wasn't going to build any screwe tires but am now considering. The 35 screw rule was implemented nearly six months ago now.It was brought into place to allow racers to build a tire closer to the traction that a menard tire offers...I don't want to see the MENARDS gone....but ...apparently they may be a thing of the past??? No one really knows for sure.
For the past few years we have seen a small decline in "menards" cars but I really don't think it's the price of the tires. In our economy the price of fuel,trucks and trailers, and everything you buy is just more money. A dollar just doesn't go as far anymore. Claude H.
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12/3/2006, 9:00 am
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