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christianfish wrote:

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Post Script wrote:

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Perpetua wrote:

Christianity is not about us. It's about God. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. The word simply means follower of Christ. Are you saying you hope God is not a small as truth?

One the surface, the belief that all religions are equal/valid ways of getting to your desired end (Heaven, afterlife etc.) sounds like a very rosy, harmonious and tolerant view. But you said yourself every religion claims to have objective truth, thus this sort of postmodernism will not tolerate most major religions. The Qur'an has nearly 500 verses related to their belief that "There is no other way than Allah" and describing the eternal damnation of the unbeliever. If all paths lead to the top of the mountain, than Jesus died in vain.

Christianity, I firmly believe, is more than a set of rules and rituals set up by man. Some of the rules stem from the character of God and are the way we must live in order to become more like Christ. Some are to protect us, but none of them will get us to Heaven in lieu of God's saving grace. He judges the heart, not our actions so I would also not be surprised to men who, on earth, called themselves "Muslim" or "Hindi" merely because they'd never heard of anything else or did not have the opportunity. Maybe at the end of world they will also be presented fairly with the truth and given the chance to accept or reject. Maybe that's a heresy, but if I know anything about God’s character, I know He is fair and just.

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'Christianity is not about us. It's about God.'
I haven't done an enormous amount of studying other religons, but from what I have read, they can say the same thing.
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what I'm getting at either. I guess I'm saying that I hope devout followers of other religons have not lived in vain. According to a few verses in the Bible, they have. But like you said, according to the Qur'an, we have. And so on and so forth. I don't know, I'm not exactly sure how to say what I'm trying to say. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I don't believe everything that my church tells me.

My mind keeps going in circles because I just can't see God, or at least, the God that I know, letting people go to Hell for believing in Him, but not Jesus. And then there's the whole 'Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one' thing, so if they believe in God, and God is Jesus, then do they believe in Jesus? I don't think so, but I don't know. I don't really know anything, I'm quickly discovering.

I doubt this post made any sense at all. It's just something I've been thinking about.

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Somebody may have already beat me to this one, because I didn't read all of the posts.
I'm taking an Intro to Missions course this semester, and while this certainly doesn't make me an expert on the subject, it is something that I've really been hearing/reading a lot about lately--the "destiny of the unevangelized." In fact, I've got a paper due on it on Wednesday.
So, there are three pretty big beliefs (and I'm sure thousands more) of who gets to Heaven and how they get there.
The first (the one I personally lean toward) is called "inclusivism" and it basically states that the unevangelized could make it into Heaven without ever having actually heard the name of Jesus. That is, tribal peoples (for example) could never have heard the Gospel, and yet still worship God by the knowledge they do have of Him (found in creation or through other means). Also, infants, those with mental illnesses, and those who have not yet reached the age of accountability will go to Heaven.
The second is called "postmortem evangelization," or "PME" (and lots of other things, as well). This one (in a nutshell) says that we can't limit God and that those who didn't have a chance to hear about Jesus will get that chance after their --their destiny is based on what they decide after .
The third is called restrictivism, and I don't know as much about it. This is mostly due to the fact that the book we were required to read on this is very vague; the man that wrote it pretty much said nothing about what he actually believed but instead attacked the other two guys and what they believed. From what I understand, restrictivism pretty much says there are people that are predestined from the time that God created the earth to end up in Heaven. The rest of us are basically out of luck, whether or not we call on Jesus' name.

There's also pluralism, which says that everyone will be saved, even if they don't know they are saved. So missions would equal telling people they are already saved instead of evangelizing them.

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Perpetua wrote:

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christianfish wrote:

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Post Script wrote:

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Perpetua wrote:

Christianity is not about us. It's about God. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. The word simply means follower of Christ. Are you saying you hope God is not a small as truth?

One the surface, the belief that all religions are equal/valid ways of getting to your desired end (Heaven, afterlife etc.) sounds like a very rosy, harmonious and tolerant view. But you said yourself every religion claims to have objective truth, thus this sort of postmodernism will not tolerate most major religions. The Qur'an has nearly 500 verses related to their belief that "There is no other way than Allah" and describing the eternal damnation of the unbeliever. If all paths lead to the top of the mountain, than Jesus died in vain.

Christianity, I firmly believe, is more than a set of rules and rituals set up by man. Some of the rules stem from the character of God and are the way we must live in order to become more like Christ. Some are to protect us, but none of them will get us to Heaven in lieu of God's saving grace. He judges the heart, not our actions so I would also not be surprised to men who, on earth, called themselves "Muslim" or "Hindi" merely because they'd never heard of anything else or did not have the opportunity. Maybe at the end of world they will also be presented fairly with the truth and given the chance to accept or reject. Maybe that's a heresy, but if I know anything about God’s character, I know He is fair and just.

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'Christianity is not about us. It's about God.'
I haven't done an enormous amount of studying other religons, but from what I have read, they can say the same thing.
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what I'm getting at either. I guess I'm saying that I hope devout followers of other religons have not lived in vain. According to a few verses in the Bible, they have. But like you said, according to the Qur'an, we have. And so on and so forth. I don't know, I'm not exactly sure how to say what I'm trying to say. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I don't believe everything that my church tells me.

My mind keeps going in circles because I just can't see God, or at least, the God that I know, letting people go to Hell for believing in Him, but not Jesus. And then there's the whole 'Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one' thing, so if they believe in God, and God is Jesus, then do they believe in Jesus? I don't think so, but I don't know. I don't really know anything, I'm quickly discovering.

I doubt this post made any sense at all. It's just something I've been thinking about.

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Somebody may have already beat me to this one, because I didn't read all of the posts.
I'm taking an Intro to Missions course this semester, and while this certainly doesn't make me an expert on the subject, it is something that I've really been hearing/reading a lot about lately--the "destiny of the unevangelized." In fact, I've got a paper due on it on Wednesday.
So, there are three pretty big beliefs (and I'm sure thousands more) of who gets to Heaven and how they get there.
The first (the one I personally lean toward) is called "inclusivism" and it basically states that the unevangelized could make it into Heaven without ever having actually heard the name of Jesus. That is, tribal peoples (for example) could never have heard the Gospel, and yet still worship God by the knowledge they do have of Him (found in creation or through other means). Also, infants, those with mental illnesses, and those who have not yet reached the age of accountability will go to Heaven.
The second is called "postmortem evangelization," or "PME" (and lots of other things, as well). This one (in a nutshell) says that we can't limit God and that those who didn't have a chance to hear about Jesus will get that chance after their --their destiny is based on what they decide after .
The third is called restrictivism, and I don't know as much about it. This is mostly due to the fact that the book we were required to read on this is very vague; the man that wrote it pretty much said nothing about what he actually believed but instead attacked the other two guys and what they believed. From what I understand, restrictivism pretty much says there are people that are predestined from the time that God created the earth to end up in Heaven. The rest of us are basically out of luck, whether or not we call on Jesus' name.

There's also pluralism, which says that everyone will be saved, even if they don't know they are saved. So missions would equal telling people they are already saved instead of evangelizing them.

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I like your very concise description of the 'isms'. I agree with the 1st and maybe part of the 2nd if I am understanding it correctly. Thank you!

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Perpetua wrote:

According to John 8:19, those who do not know Jesus do not know the Father God.

 "Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

   "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."


 

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christianfish wrote:

I see it differently.
"If A, then B."
If you know me...then you know my Father.

However, if B then A?
If you know my Father, then you know me.
Possible.

But it's possible to know the Father without knowing Jesus, isn't it? See Old Testament.

So, If A, then possibly B.
If B, then possibly A.
But A and B do not always follow each other.

I hope that made sense.

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Perpetua wrote:

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christianfish wrote:

I see it differently.
"If A, then B."
If you know me...then you know my Father.

However, if B then A?
If you know my Father, then you know me.
Possible.

But it's possible to know the Father without knowing Jesus, isn't it? See Old Testament.

So, If A, then possibly B.
If B, then possibly A.
But A and B do not always follow each other.

I hope that made sense.

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Yes, it absolutely makes sense and my logic proff. would be mortified with me.
Forgive my jumping to conclusions with that verse.

What about these verses? I don't remember if they have to do with the same topic, but they do claim that Jesus is the only bridge between God and man.

"... no one comes to the Father, but through me" (John 14:6b)

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved, " (Acts 4:12)

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

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Post Script wrote:

Maybe this should be in Politics/Debates, but oh well. I doubt you care.

The other night I was having coffee with a friend, and we were talking about how it just doesn't make sense that our God, the Jesus that we know, would be as small as Christianity. It seems to me sometimes that we want God to be exclusive to us, but so does every other religon. Most Holy books will say something along the lines of "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. [John 14:3, I think]." And they are passionate about it, and they feel God, and they devote their lives to their form of Him. Well so do we. So...if Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, and Christians alll believe in a God, and they all pray, and they all follow rules, and they all feel a passion for Him, then why are Christians the only ones that go to Heaven? Are Christians the only ones who go to Heaven? I don't know. I just...well, I feel like my God is bigger than we make Him out to be.

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christianfish wrote:


Hah, forgiven. I want a logic professor!

On the other verses, I honestly don't know. That's kind of where I think it's rather ambiguous but at the same time very clear, and that confuses me a lot. I mean, how can someone come to the Father through Jesus if they've never heard Jesus' name? And if they absolutely have to have Jesus to get to the Father, then that sure does leave a whole lot of people unsaved, and not of their own fault. And I don't think that a completely fair God (and our God says He is, and I believe that) would leave people hanging out to dry like that. I don't know.

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SarahIsHopeful wrote:

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Post Script wrote:

Maybe this should be in Politics/Debates, but oh well. I doubt you care.

The other night I was having coffee with a friend, and we were talking about how it just doesn't make sense that our God, the Jesus that we know, would be as small as Christianity. It seems to me sometimes that we want God to be exclusive to us, but so does every other religon. Most Holy books will say something along the lines of "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. [John 14:3, I think]." And they are passionate about it, and they feel God, and they devote their lives to their form of Him. Well so do we. So...if Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, and Christians alll believe in a God, and they all pray, and they all follow rules, and they all feel a passion for Him, then why are Christians the only ones that go to Heaven? Are Christians the only ones who go to Heaven? I don't know. I just...well, I feel like my God is bigger than we make Him out to be.

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I think the reason that Christians are the only ones that go to heaven is because they're the only ones that trust in Christ being the only God. All the other religions trust in something else as their God, when it's really not God.
Does that make sense?

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LadyGodiva74 wrote:

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christianfish wrote:


Hah, forgiven. I want a logic professor!

On the other verses, I honestly don't know. That's kind of where I think it's rather ambiguous but at the same time very clear, and that confuses me a lot. I mean, how can someone come to the Father through Jesus if they've never heard Jesus' name? And if they absolutely have to have Jesus to get to the Father, then that sure does leave a whole lot of people unsaved, and not of their own fault. And I don't think that a completely fair God (and our God says He is, and I believe that) would leave people hanging out to dry like that. I don't know.

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In order to believe that those who haven't heard the name of Christ will go to Hell, you have to believe in some form of predestination. That's not a term that's used a whole lot anymore, but it's definitely what happens if some people will never have the option of being saved.

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