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Morwen Oronor
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The soul and the afterlife
Thanks for inviting me to discuss this.
I have this from ancient history:
There was a time when human life was disorganized,
like the life of animals. Force ruled.
There was no reward for virtue,
no punishment for crime.
Then, I believe, human beings invented laws
as executioners, so that Justice might be dictator
over all alike, and hold violence in subjection.
Criminals were punished.
Now the laws prevented
open crimes of violence.
Covert crime continued. At this point, I believe,
Some ingeniously clever man first
invented for mortals fear of the gods, to bring
the sanction of fear on criminals, however covertly
they might act or speak or plan.
So he invented divinity,
'There exists an immortal divine being,
hearing and seeing without bodily senses, marking
their acts with perfect wisdom, wearing a divine form,
ready to hear all that human beings say
able to see all that they do.
Though you plot a crime in silence
the gods will know; they are
omniscient.' With sounds like these
he introduced the most welcome of all doctrines,
and veiled the truth in lies.
He proposed as a home for the gods the place where
his proposal would have the most powerful effect,
the region from which, as he knew, terror came
as well as succour for those in distress,
the circumference of the sky, where he saw
the flashing lightning and the fearful crash
of thunder, and the star-strewn face of heaven,
the glorious workmanship of time, the craftsman.
From there the blazing molten mass of the meteor falls,
and showers of rain come down to earth.
He instilled these fears into mankind,
used them to establish this gorgeous myth
of a god in a worthy habitation,
and extinguished lawlessness by law.
Critias (c460-403B.C. - Sisyphus
I didn't say it originally this was though long before the birth of Christ. I've always believed that religion rules through fear. Fear of death, fear of retribution, fear of 'what other people will say' and so on. And the idea of a 'soul' was the way to explain what it was that went to 'heaven' or 'hell' after your death, so that if you have the promise of a better life after death, you won't fear death but also you won't be that inclined to spend your life in accumulating wealth and pleasure, but rather in the service of the people who control your religion, hey why amass a fortune here when you can get it all for nothing after death.
My question about the 'soul' is this: if it really exists and I will go on 'living' after my life, then why can't I simply apologise for my 'sins' then.
A lot of people have 'near-death' experiences with a 'light' and visions of their dead family members but science has now explained that as well, as being the brain's final shut-down the last little bit of electrical current left and when you recover from it you remember the experience and it might be 'near-death' but it is not 'near-after-life'.
Just my thoughts, tell me what you think.
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8/8/2008, 12:19 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
I had thought of near death experiences, and maybe even regular dreams, as having contributed to the idea of a soul. When the first myth was invented, they wouldn't have known that dreams are basically just the mind doing its thinking as we sleep, and near death experiences are related to dreams.
I'm sure everyone has had dreams that they believed were real as they were having them, and I know at least some people still believe some of their dreams were real after they wake up. To this day, I remember a short dream I had when I was a little girl, and it still feels like it was real, although I know it wasn't. The only reason I say I know it wasn't real is because it couldn't possibly have happened in reality. The dream consisted of a man with a pointy mustache and goatee and no body, floating up in the corner of the room near the ceiling and said "oh yeah" in an evil-sounding voice.  That floating, speaking, disembodied head scared me so much that I immediately ran out to the living room where my parents were and told them about it. I never did know if that was a part of my dream or if I had woken up from the dream before running out of the bedroom, but if I was highly superstitious, I just might believe that the floating head was Satan planning to take over my soul.
Now that I've posted that, someone will probably come along and claim that it was, and that he succeeded. 
Reading the Old Testament, I got the distinct impression that a large part of their mythology was created by the leaders themselves. The Levite priests didn't have to plow fields, pay taxes, etc., and sat around all day supposedly ministering to Yahweh, but the other eleven tribes were all expected to feed and clothe them. Gee, and as luck would have it, they just happened to be the keeper of scripture and mediator for Yahweh. It's no wonder the early church councils included so much of the Old Testament into Christian doctrine (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's), and we still see a lot of that back-scratching between Christianity and government going on right now, right here in the U.S. and other countries. Of course they want to keep the population religious!
I get the impression from the passage you quoted that Critius was an atheist. Wasn't he a student of Socrates? Socrates strikes me as an agnostic with his own spiritual beliefs that seemed to revolve around conscience, but after reading Euthyphro's Dilemma, I don't think he shared the same beliefs of his culture.
I agree that religion (or most, at least) is based largely on fear, but at the same time it's based on desire. Many people desire to keep living after death (they fear death), and they desire to have a good afterlife instead of a bad one (they fear hell). However, fear does seem to be the most powerful emotion for keeping people in a religion once they're there, and can often lure them to it in the first place.
Fear of death helps reinforce belief in an afterlife. They want to believe it so badly they can taste it, so they convince themselves that it is so. But once they believe in an afterlife, they then have the afterlife itself to fear, so even when their logic starts telling them the religion is wrong, they still play Pascal's Wager because they fear a horrible afterlife if they do stop believing. Once they start playing Pascal's Wager, I don't think they truly believe. They just convince themselves that they do, because not believing scares them too much.
Another reason for religious belief is purpose. But again, this is based on desire. In this case, they believe their lives are meaningless unless they were put here for a reason, so they desire to believe that is the case and therefore convince themselves that it is the case. This desire, of course, is also a fear of having no purpose.
Also, most people don't want to be seen as an outcast, and/or they want to feel like part of a group, so they go along with the status quo. This is another group I would put in the not-true-believer category. However, due to the emotional factor that prompted them to join in the first place, some of these people can start believing if they get involved enough in the church's activities.
There are many other reasons why people get involved in religion, but I do think the strongest attraction is fear, whatever their particular fear may be. Unfortunately, once the person is in, religion often causes them to be even more fearful, while at the same time more dependent on the religion itself to "cure" whatever it is that they are fearful of.
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8/8/2008, 9:23 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
I agree with everything you've said and also there is another one that has become very obvious to me lately, perhaps because of having made a study of abnormal psychology, I am more aware of it.
A lot of people become deeply religious because they have something in their lives that they can't deal with on their own, and, because of the old-fashioned stigma attached to psycho-therapy (you know, your whole family is suspect if you are mentally ill?)they cope by become religious. One very obvious one is dealing with homosexuality.
A family I know has children who are obviously homosexual to the rest of their social circle but who go through the motions of heterosexual relationships and cope with their confusion in with fundamentalist Christianity. I also have, in my family a group that are homosexual, and in their extended family they have people who've committed suicide rather than deal with their sexuality. In this family, one of the women gave up her religion when she finally told her husband and openly admitted her lesbian relationship and she is now a very successful businesswoman with two very well adjusted children, who themselves were developing psychological problems when she was in her religious phase.
These are not the only cases I've seen of children getting religion rather than admitting their sexual orientation and because the family is pleased that the kids have 'found God' they won't face the truth of the children's confusion.
This is because religion condemns homosexuality and makes people feel guilty about it so they try to 'get cured' by going to religion. And when you point out to a mother that the son who likes to choose her clothes, cater her dinner parties and spends more time and money on his looks than she does, might just need to come to terms with his sexual orientation, then he won't spend the rest of his time apologising to God because he likes the good looking boys in his class as much as the girls do, she says "Jesus will give him strength to see the error of his thoughts".
This is one that pre-modern times didn't have to deal with because being homosexual was something secret. I'm not saying that all deeply religious people are hiding some deep, dark secret. Of course not, I hate generalizations as much as everyone else, what I'm saying is that a large number of people do hide from the thing they fear to face by being hyper-religious.
Like for instance, sexual abuse. This is another one I've come across, an abuser will behave like a patriarchal dictator to his family to the outside world but in the deep, dark night, he will crawl into his daughters' bedrooms and then in the cold light of day, spend hours on his knees asking God to take the problem away from him. We only need to look at the number of cases of priests abusing choirboys to know how true this one is.
But on the other hand, I've also known people who honestly believe in their religions, leaving the rest of us alone in our disbelief and who find comfort in their belief; that is completely ok with me. As long as they leave me alone to be a heathen, pagan, heretic or whatever other name I've been called, they can enjoy themselves. I don't care what other people do in the privacy of their own homes, as long as the people they are doing it with are in full consent.
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8/8/2008, 11:12 pm
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toxiczen
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
My question about the 'soul' is this: if it really exists and I will go on 'living' after my life, then why can't I simply apologise for my 'sins' then.
A lot of people have 'near-death' experiences with a 'light' and visions of their dead family members but science has now explained that as well, as being the brain's final shut-down the last little bit of electrical current left and when you recover from it you remember the experience and it might be 'near-death' but it is not 'near-after-life'.
Just my thoughts, tell me what you think.
well for the first part, i would ask what is "sin" for you? what does it mean? is it a transgression of "gods" law? is it going against your own moral code? there is no black and white really... there hardly ever is! i would imagine though that if you live your life "sinning" as it were, knowing selfishly that you can just apologize when you die, than it really serves no purpose... if to you "sin" is a personal moral code, and tramping on it it is what qualifies an action as "sinly" than you likely wouldn't feel inclined to wait till you die to apologize, as your apology would be patently insincere, knowing it was just a kind of a trick you thought up to ignore your own truth, or path.
and as for what science has explained, I'm not so quick to accept what "science" has to say about things it barley understands (there are some!) in my humble opinion modern science is an awesome tool, but ultimatley JUST a tool and like any too it isn't adequate for every job.
i think quantum theory is a good point for the best of science and the best of mysticism to merge into better universal understandings
Last revised by toxiczen, 8/9/2008, 1:22 am
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"Love is the strongest force the world possesses, yet! it is the humblest imaginable."
~Gandhi
"it is easier to tell the truth: you don't have to remember anything"
~Mark Twain
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8/9/2008, 1:19 am
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
To reply to your post: I was speaking generally when I said 'I' could apologize at the Pearly Gates, perhaps I should have used the more old-fashioned 'one'. I don't regard anything about my life as 'sinful' unless you'd include a predilection for chocolate in that. LOL.
I think I'm a fairly decent person, I can't see anything about my life that is sinful, yet judgemental people tell me 'we are all sinners', sorry but I don't see the sin in my life, maybe that sounds arrogant but I don't 'sin' except as I say to enjoy chocolate a bit too much for my own good.
I don't have a problem with other people having mystical or spiritual beliefs, I just don't have any. I may jokingly say yes, I am a typical Aries, but that is more due to a lifetime of conditioning to believe that my star sign determines that I should be a trail-blazing pioneer or perhaps, my arrogance and over-confident self-image.
I prefer to think it's the latter. I am proud of what I've achieved in my life despite a whole lot of setbacks, and I am proud of who I am. That doesn't make me a typical anything. But to get back to science, I prefer to test theories that people offer to me as proof of something. And I prefer theories that will stand up to being tested. Even when something is offered to me as infallible proof of the existence of something, I want to see how they came to that conclusion. In much the same way that a teacher won't accept an answer to a mathematical equation even when the student says "I did it in my head", I want to see how they arrived at the answer - that's my nature and that is why I cannot accept angels, demons and after-lives.
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8/9/2008, 1:34 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
Mo,
It's really heartbreaking that someone will deny who they really are when they are already a decent human being, and turn to anything to "fix" it. It's even more heartbreaking when they hate themselves because they can't "fix" it (something that doesn't need to be fixed), have society and even family looking down on them because they're supposedly flawed, and ultimately commit suicide because of it.
Not only is it heartbreaking, but it's disgusting that people will do this to other people, especially their own children. But unfortunately, it happens, and this is one of the things I really dislike about the religions that have such arbitrary rules. How ironic it is that they claim to be the moral ones, when they are causing so much pain and suffering in this world, and even driving their own children to commit suicide.
Like you, "I don't care what other people do in the privacy of their own homes, as long as the people they are doing it with are in full consent." Unfortunately, children don't have the kind of critical thinking skills that are needed to decide whether they should be consenting or not. By the time they are old enough to think critically, religion is often too embedded into their way of thinking that it's hard to break away from it in their adulthood.
Also, there are people who try to push their religion onto everyone else and judge others according to it. When one of their children doesn't share their beliefs and is still far too young to move out, this can make for an especially difficult childhood. I know of a bright young man (I hesitate to call him a child because of his intelligence, eloquence, and respectfulness) who broke away from the fundamentalist Christian world view of his parents and became an atheist, because that is where logic led him. Unfortunately, he still has a few years to go before he is old enough to move out of his parents' house and has decided to pretend he still believes, just to keep the peace. Lucky for him, we have the internet, where he has found a message board to talk about things with others who have been in his position, as well as some who still are. For once, I'm glad that a minor's parents (I think he's 14 or 15) aren't monitoring his internet usage, because where else would he turn? From the sounds of it, everyone he knows is a Christian, and I'm sure word would get around to his parents if any of them ever found out.
Re: Proof. I'm like you in that, I like to know how something's existence is supposedly proven before I can consider it proven, and as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I can't tell you how many people have told me "It's been proven that..." But when I ask them how it's been proven, they use circular "logic" or don't even have an answer at all.
Toxiczen,
While I don't understand quantum theory, I hope to someday. While I can acknowledge that someone has more than likely "seen" (but not seen) a single electron go through two holes at the same time (after all, they've done this experiment countless times, right?), I don't see how this has proven that one electron can affect another electron halfway across the universe. Those weren't your words, but from the article I read today about scientific discoveries that included quantum theory and related the two slits experiment to Shroedinger's cat. Even if they are somehow able to prove this – or at least prove that one electron on earth can affect an electron on the moon or on Mars – it would show a natural connectivity between distant objects, but I still don't see how such a discovery would be proof of a soul. Maybe I misunderstood your concept of mysticism?
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8/9/2008, 10:55 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
Also even if it is possible to produce some sort of magical connectivity between earth and another planet, all that proves is that it is possible to perform that act, it doesn't prove that something mystical exists.
I refuse to allow 'blind faith' to cloud my judgement.
LG, a friend of mine wrote a rather compelling book about his deconversion which makes for very interesting reading. I can direct you to it if you like, I asked him if I could quote from it and get people to discuss his reasoning; he has agreed that I may go ahead but I haven't figured out how to do it yet because I don't want to upset people who truly believe and at the same time I would like to help the book get exposure. It is well-researched, even if it is not the writing of a scholar (due to fundamentalism his further education was discouraged)it is pretty compelling.
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8/9/2008, 11:20 pm
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toxiczen
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
well "proof" in the five sense, intellectual, third dimensional sense may never come about, its kind of like the Buddhist concept of letting go of attachment to ones ego/brain in order to embrace transcendent awareness... i don't think there will ever really be a codified, measurable example of a soul, using "tools" it doesn't have to be as black and white as you cannot prove it isn't real so it must be! it may well be (like everything else) shades of grey, one can intuitively "understand" something that cannot be "proven" on a purely physical level and as long as said one isn't shoving this viewpoint down others throats than there is no problem.
but as for mysticism working with science, i think quantum theory is a good place to start because it speaks of the unification of everything, all is one as it were, and with many mystical concepts you get the same thing, we are all one, all manifestations of the same energy, on a quantum scale the concept of "magically" effecting the environment with ones will becomes apparent, as in the classic "double slit experiment" and on a larger scale things like the placebo effect, and mass mind weather effecting experiments...
Last revised by toxiczen, 8/10/2008, 1:05 pm
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"Love is the strongest force the world possesses, yet! it is the humblest imaginable."
~Gandhi
"it is easier to tell the truth: you don't have to remember anything"
~Mark Twain
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8/10/2008, 1:01 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
I can't even pretend to understand science. My field is Humanities, I left science in high school a very long time ago, so if I pretend to understand quantum physics I would have to make a total fool of myself.
But I do understand the scientific method of research, and I do understand that if something can be measured and examined it can be proved. I have never been able to understand the concept of myself being outside of my body, I really believe my body and my mind make up who I am, without this body, if for instance I had been born to other parents, I would be a completely different person. So if the 'soul' is some spiritual essence that invades your body at some stage of the development process, then surely no matter what body you occupy, you should be the same person. This is impossible from a psychological point of view because who we are stems not only from our genetics, but also from the circumstances of our psychological development, therefore no, I can't accept that I have a 'spirit' or a 'soul', no matter what quantum physics may or may not prove.
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8/10/2008, 1:13 pm
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toxiczen
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Re: The soul and the afterlife
So if the 'soul' is some spiritual essence that invades your body at some stage of the development process, then surely no matter what body you occupy, you should be the same person... ...I can't accept that I have a 'spirit' or a 'soul', no matter what quantum physics may or may not prove.
well instead of an "essence invading your body" it could be awareness manifesting AS a body.
but the cool thing is, is that you don't have to accept anything! if your brain and body is all there is to perceived reality to you, than it really is all there is! and that's perfectly fine.
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"Love is the strongest force the world possesses, yet! it is the humblest imaginable."
~Gandhi
"it is easier to tell the truth: you don't have to remember anything"
~Mark Twain
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8/10/2008, 1:28 pm
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