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Morwen Oronor
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This is another funny one
This guy is trying really hard to appear to be an intellectual in defense of his religious beliefs.
I note that when he and his blog are attacked by real intellectuals, the conversations shut down, nothing more since April.
http://christianmind.blogspot.com/2006/04/atheist-chat.html
I find these things when I'm bored and just messing around googling words into the search thingy.
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The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.William Spencer Churchill
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6/29/2009, 8:49 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: This is another funny one
One of those dialogue partners frequently engaged Christians in debate yet was reluctant to offer an argument in support of his own position. His rationale for this was that since he was a negative atheist (one who lacks a belief in God but does not assert that God does not exist), he was making no assertion and therefore was under no obligation to offer a defense.
This is a very common ploy but I think it's flawed.
No, he doesn't think it's flawed. If he did any unbiased thinking on the matter, he would see that his atheist "friend" is correct.
Let's look at multiple universes as an analogy. Right now, we only know of the one. I do not subscribe to the belief in more than one universe, but I don't rule it out. The only reason I lack belief in multiple universes is because we don't have enough information to determine that yet, and who knows if we ever will?
Now, let's say someone comes along and not only claims to know that another universe exists, but also makes claims about the properties of this other universe. My response to that would be along the lines of, "The world's top scientists don't even know if other universes exist, but you expect me to believe that you have detailed knowledge about another universe? Sorry, I'm not buying it."
If this person wants to convince me, it is up to him to provide the proof. It wouldn't be my job to convince him that I'm unconvinced one way or the other. How stupid is that? I would be reasonably assured that he can't possibly know any details about such places, however, simply because the world's leading scientists don't have enough information to determine whether such places exist or not. Even so, it's not my job to convince him that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but if there was a whole movement of these multiple universists gaining power in our politics and changing our laws for the worst in the name of this "theory," then you're darned tootin' I would start speaking out against it.
Where this analogy differs from religious claims is, we do have enough information to know that the idea of a certain kind of creator deity "who" takes an interest in human affairs is highly improbable. This is a claim that says to the theist, "Your claim is wrong," and I'm more than happy to explain why to someone who is open enough to really listen, or in a public forum where fence-sitters can benefit from it.
That said, "I don't believe (am not convinced of) your claim," in itself, is not a claim. As such, it's not up to the person making such a statement to prove that they are unconvinced.
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6/29/2009, 7:19 pm
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: This is another funny one
Ah, well stated...
At April 02, 2009 5:13 PM, Blogger John said...
You're utterly, backwardly wrong, of course. Atheism, at least the sort where one merely lacks a positive belief in a deity, requires absolutely no defense, as it's a default position.
You are an atheist as well, towards all the gods you don't believe in. Are you obligated to defend your lack of belief in all the other deities except the one you choose to believe in? Of course not. It's not a "common ploy", because it's not any sort of ploy. It's stating the incredibly obvious.
In the end, it boils down to burden of proof. The burden of proof is not on the skeptic, it's on the one making the claim. Even someone who actively disbelieves isn't required to justify their position, as they haven't made the claim that a thing exists. Like it or not, it's your responsibility in a debate to prove your claim true, not an atheists'. Their role in the debate is to make you show evidence, and to do their best to call that evidence into question by providing contrary evidence, not to prove there is/are no god(s).
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6/29/2009, 7:31 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: This is another funny one
Yes, usually when the argument becomes sensible the loonies disappear. This is what happens whenever believers attack atheists and get shot down.
It's also the reason why messageboards that are set up purely to promote atheism rarely survive longer than the first attack by believers.
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The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.William Spencer Churchill
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6/29/2009, 10:51 pm
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: This is another funny one
There are a lot of boards that promote skepticism and rational thinking, but just atheism? That would make about as much sense as starting a board for the sole purpose of refuting flat-earth "theory". 
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6/30/2009, 5:49 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: This is another funny one
I've actually come across boards that are purely about atheism, as you say there's nothing to discuss so they shut down, especially once the fundies come and then leave because of getting their arguments squashed.
As I said on another board, you can't say "what don't you believe" and expect a whole long debate about it.
I just enjoy reading the rubbish that fundies write to try and justify their beliefs, it's all too silly and a source of great amusement to me. So I go looking for them when I need a laugh.
My kids tell me I deliberately provoke arguments with them because I have a 'thing' about religion, they don't get that it's comic relief.
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The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.William Spencer Churchill
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6/30/2009, 11:22 pm
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: This is another funny one
For me, it can be frustrating or funny, and sometimes both at the same time. fstdt.com is good for comic relief.
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7/1/2009, 4:40 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: This is another funny one
On religion and evolution, I cam across another one yesterday. I couldn't help commenting, The link to the survey is there.
I didn't want to repeat what I said on my blog but look at the stats for the US and tell me what you think. That survey makes it look like there are 10 million people in SA who know about Darwin. I dispute that, yes, I realise they say adults but even 27% of SA adults wouldn't know about Darwin if he rose from the grave and started lecturing. I would put it more at about 1% of Sa adults who actually know more about him than just his name. Most people, everywhere, are just ignorant and quite frankly, I think, stupid.
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The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.William Spencer Churchill
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7/2/2009, 12:22 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: This is another funny one
Do you live in a city, suburb, or rural area? Are you sure your own personal experience is indicative of the entire country's level of knowledge?
I'm not saying the poll's results are accurate, but maybe the truth is somewhere in between that poll and your own personal experience.
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7/2/2009, 4:30 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Re: This is another funny one
I lived in major urban areas for most of my life, it's only in the past 5 years that I've lived in a small rural community.
You have to remember that until 1994 we lived in a theocracy, everything in the country was decided according to the religious beliefs of the government which was Calvinist.
We had censorship, no Sunday business (movies, bars, shops etc all closed) in the 1980s they started allowing supermarkets to open on Sundays but they had to block the non-essential items off, like dogfood and soap powder. And we still can't buy alcohol on Sundays, even now. We can get alcohol in restaurants and bars but not at stores. We only got television in 1976 and then it was heavily censored.
After 1994 we've had a fairly open society but the government pays lip-service to the churches because so many of the MPs are religious and religion is the only way that uneducated people can be kept in check. It's easier to explain to a poorly educated person that God forbids something than to explain that something is morally wrong. This is why we have such a high rape problem, because among Africans, rape does not exist: when men want sex, women have to give it, no matter who they are. So to change the thinking, women encourage men to go to church where the religious leaders tell them God says it's wrong.
So bearing all the above in mind and considering that only the present adult population of Africans have been allowed to have a proper education that doesn't involve learning to be a servant before learning to read, i.e. the people who are leaving school now, at least 80% of the parents of those school-leavers have never heard of Darwin nor understand the idea that God "may not have created the earth".
Even Africans who live in cities, I'm talking about the mature ones now, people who were educated under the old Bantu Education system, those that did manage to get through high school and go on to tertiary education, most of them still go to church and believe in religion rather than try to get their heads around something else.
When you speak to ordinary, everyday, white South Africans, not scientists, but ordinary people, they'll say either "I don't care - I'm not interested" or "I don't believe in God per se, but I do think that there's more. I don't think we just live and die, but it doesn't bother me".
People who don't believe at all, i.e. atheists, I reckon there are probably only very few in this country and even those who say they don't believe, still pay lip-service to religion. I would put atheists, true non-believers, at about 1% of our entire adult population.
Look at the population figures here.
The number of eligible voters for our last election was 23 million. According to the statistics on that page 15% have no religion and 1% are undetermined.
Therefore there would be 3 million or so people who have no religion (adults) but of that 3 million, you would have to say that 80% are Africans, i.e. 2.4 million. There are definitely not 2.4 million well-educated atheist Africans in this country. I would challenge that figure. I would say that the people who don't have religion or who told the census takers that they don't have religion, probably include most of our criminals.
Joking aside I still don't believe that 27% of our population knows and understands who and what Darwin is all about.
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The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.William Spencer Churchill
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7/2/2009, 11:41 pm
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