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praying4patience
I can't reason,
so I pick fights.
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I am not anti Muslim
1. i do not believe ALL Muslims are terrorists
2. our Constitution protects freedom of religion for Muslims as much as it protects the freeom of religion for Christians.It protects the rights of ppl with no religion at all.Endowed by our Creator with inalienable rights means God gives us our rights and government cannot take them away and does not give them.Among them are LIFE,LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. That means if a person chooses not to worship the Creator (or even beleive)his/her has the same right to life as the Christian who does. It doesn't take away anyone's right NOT to believe.
3. I don't know about Islam and what it teaches.I would just once like to see an explanation of what Islam actually teaches that is consistent.
4.I agree TOTALLY with LG re what is offensive to Muslims being published-ie the cartoons.
I am just as opposed to using violence as a response to being offended. You don't kill a 73 yr old nun by shooting her in the back because someone elses comments were offensive(and taken out of context) and you don't burn a Cathedral down because you are offended by another persons comments no matter how offensive they may be.
On the other hand the ppl that drew the cartoons were totally insensitive to the fact that the cartoons would be blasphemous to a Muslim and could have showed some responsibility by NOT using them.
That brings us up to this question re FREEDOM.PPl think reedom is being able to do whatever i want.
A correct understanding of freedom is that i am able to do the moral good or ought.I do not have freedom to committ a morally evil act.That's not freedom;that's license.
Human freedom is broad(Genesis;you may eat of ALL of these)but human freedom has limits(BUT this one).
For instance;you can hold an anti Bush rally.I may disagree with what you think of him.Can i go into an auditorium where you are holding an anti Bush rally and shoot every single one of you? Do i have that freedom? I can do it if i want to,that's true(license).Do i have the FREEDOM to do that? NOPE.
Anotherwords if someone wants to publish something that he knows is considred blasphemous to a certain group of ppl should they do it? Common sense and restraint should lead to better judgement and self censorship.
I don't think they should not publish it because it will result in violent riots,bombings,killing and burnings.I think they should consider not publishing it because to a certain group of ppl it is blasphemous.
Nobody should be that threatened that they would not for fear of reprisal.
Common sense. But if something is considred blasphemous to a group of ppl or something is SOOO offensive we can use self restraint and self censorship.
We do that all the time.We often self censor to keep conversation civil or up to a level of decency.
No one with an ounce of common sense and sensitivity would walk into a Jewish neighborhood and paint a swastika. I can think of a dozen other examples of things we simply wouldn't do.
Again,freedom is freedom to do the moral good and no one has the freedom to committ a morally evil act.
That's license.
I just wanted to make it clear that i'm not anti Muslim,they're not all terrorists but i don't have a clear enough understanding of Islam to know what it actually teaches.Nobody seems to provide a consistent teaching. Is there one?
GB!~
p4p
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10/7/2006, 5:09 pm
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Belligerence
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
I believe someone should ( In theory ) be able to paint a swastica in a Jewish neighbourhood and not worry about being stoned to death...IE -- If the person wants to paint their door with one huge one whilst living in a Jewish community go for it...Just dun rape/murder/steal/etc...Basically the 10 commandments excluding a few...
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ has some stuff about the Quran and what have you if you wanna read up...
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10/7/2006, 6:29 pm
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praying4patience
I can't reason,
so I pick fights.
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
I believe someone should ( In theory ) be able to paint a swastica in a Jewish neighbourhood and not worry about being stoned to death
being able to paint a swastika in a Jewish neighborhood would be license. It can't be a morally good act. That's not freedom.But if a person does then they shouldn't be stoned to death either because that's as much license as doing the painting is..only worse because it's intrinsically evil to murder. Two wrongs don't make a right.
GB!~
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10/7/2006, 8:24 pm
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Belligerence
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
Who says what's morally good though ? God ? Even though God says to go out and kill babies ? Does that make it a morally good act to kill babies because God told you to ?
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10/7/2006, 8:27 pm
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praying4patience
I can't reason,
so I pick fights.
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
Who says what's morally good though ? God ? Even though God says to go out and kill babies ? Does that make it a morally good act to kill babies because God told you to ?
First of all there are moral absolutes.Second,i noticed on this board that there are ppl throwing out passages of scripture left and right who need to get a better UNDERSTANDING of scripture. We're gonna pick up those passages that have been brought up here several times.Not in this post,but it might be a good idea to take a look at those seperately.We can discuss that.Who told me to kill a baby? Sorry.Pro life.Here's one for you.Mosaic law permitted a man to divorce his wife.What did Jesus says when He was questioned about that.He told them Mosaic law permitted it because of man's stubborness. Instead Jesus points back to,in the beginning(Genesis). Jesus is teaching here the indissolubility of marriage. In fact Jesus says in another passage about an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.What that meant at the time was a fair system of justice.If someone did something to you,you could not do anything worse to them than they had done to you.However,Jesus teaches this;do good to those who hut you;if a man asks for your shirt,give him your coat as well,if a man smites you on your right cheek,give him your left.He said,love your enemies.
Now if you're going to look at passages of the OT, first you have to understand the context in which they were written,you have to know if it's not allegorical,literal, hyperbole.You have to see the OT passages in light of NT passages.
You also have to understand this;the relationship between Creator(GOD)and creature(man).God does not kill. It is God who gave us life. What we don't have the right to do is murder another human being.We cannot determine that this person is not fit to live,not good enough to live,not well enough to live,not up to an arbitrary standard that we set that makes a human fit to live.
And OUR constitution says that the right to life is a right given by our CREATOR(wether you believe in this CREATOR or not)and it is inalienable.Government does not give that right.This cannot be arbitrarily decided by a standard we set,by a standard the courts set,by a standard that even the majority of ppl might set-it is an inalienable right given by the Creator.
Now do you REALLY beleive painting a swastika in a Jewish neighborhood is a morally good act?
Or is that license?You subjectively decide it's ok in spite of knowing what that act actually means to another human being.
It's not a intrinsically evil act in itself but it can't possibly be a morally good act and freedom means the right to do the moral good or ought.
I don't think you really beleive that.
I would also consider this-either you don't believe in God(i take it that's the case)or there's something missing in your understanding;not attacking you,ok?
Just trying to get a sense of where your thinking comes from. Wether you beleive or not; there is a God.
Most ppl that don't nelieve,don't have an explanation for life. It just all kinda happened more or less accidentally. Impossible.
Unfortunatley ppl that are athiest think that ppl who do beleive in God are stupid,naive, lack intellect etc etc.and that ppl who are athiest are sophistated,intelligent, self reliant.Except for one thing:they don't have an answer.They can beleive that something must have caused exsistence.Can't put their finger on it,can't see it,don't know what it is.They perhaps think it hasn't been discovered yet.So they actually beleive in an unknown,unexplainable, unperceptable ,possibly exsistent "IT".Odd they can accept that.
GB!~
p4p
Last revised by praying4patience, 10/9/2006, 3:11 am
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10/9/2006, 1:41 am
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Lesigner Girl
Minerva
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
God does not kill.
According to the Bible, God set a flood upon the whole earth and killed all but 8 people and other living creatures. According to the Bible, God killed everyone in Sodom, then killed Lot's wife because she peeked. I could name more examples, but it would be a waste of time, because for some weird reason, you don't believe that any of that is considered "killing."
kill - v - cause to die; put to death, usually intentionally or knowingly; "This man killed several people when he tried to rob a bank"; "The farmer killed a pig for the holidays"
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10/9/2006, 5:07 am
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PeriodicallyDemented
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
Here's a different perspective on things:
I do not believe any Muslims are terrorists. Just as I don't believe any KKK are Christians. What both of these groups claim to be is shown to be an obvious lie by their actions. That is, their professed beliefs are completely inconsistent with their actions; the two cannot exist in the same space.
P4P, your comments appear to support the view that the world is America. Please get a map. Outside of America please post any 10 countries in the world (you have another 199 to choose from) that has 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' as a central stated core of its sovereign philosophy.
Your understanding of freedom, which you quite arrogantly suggest you have the answer to, is tripe. You may be filtering your thoughts through your American superiority and Superman comics, but you make no allowance for the cultures, beliefs and rights of any country other than your own. Define 'moral good' without the use of American stereotypes and deep-south values.
Might I also add that your assertion that there is no consistent teaching or explanation of Islam may simply mean that you haven't found it, and that that may have occurred because you haven't really looked? If inconsistency is the order of the day then there is a huge link between Islam and Christianity.
For someone who wrote: "i noticed on this board that there are ppl throwing out passages of scripture left and right who need to get a better UNDERSTANDING of scripture." it may be a good place to begin leading by example. You have little or no understanding of Islam as a religion or even what it means to be a Muslim, yet it doesn't stop you from making broad-brush remarks without the least substantiation except via American fundamentalist conjecture. Hypocrisy!
God does not kill? Hmmm. Tell that to everyone and everything that didn't make it onto the ark. Sodom and Gomorrah. God created the design laws and effects of the universe, correct? In doing so God built in the results of those effects: death.
"Unfortunatley ppl that are athiest think that ppl who do beleive in God are stupid,naive, lack intellect etc etc.and that ppl who are athiest are sophistated,intelligent, self reliant.Except for one thing:they don't have an answer.They can beleive that something must have caused exsistence.Can't put their finger on it,can't see it,don't know what it is.They perhaps think it hasn't been discovered yet.So they actually beleive in an unknown,unexplainable, unperceptable ,possibly exsistent "IT".Odd they can accept that. "
Not everyone who doesn't believe in your version of God is an atheist. Perhaps some of those people are in fact only rebelling at the inconsistent, self-righteous, America-centric rhetoric that is supposed to pass for enlightened comment.
For me, the more you write the less I'm inclined to believe that your brand of down-home Christianity serves any other purpose than to appease Kentucky Christians and others who seek (and have always sought) to limit human freedom and personal choice with a set of arbitrary rules based on small-town American values and even smaller minds that live therein.
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10/9/2006, 5:41 am
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Lesigner Girl
Minerva
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
Excellent points, PD, and very well explained! 
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10/9/2006, 6:01 am
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praying4patience
I can't reason,
so I pick fights.
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
According to the Bible, God set a flood upon the whole earth and killed all but 8 people and other living creatures.
I need to be clearer.God doens't murder. I didn't see i knew enough about Islam.In fact i made it clear that i didn't. Much of it isn't consistent so i am hoping someone who knows what Islam really teaches would make it clear.
I know some things about Islam.Basics.
Beyond that could use a few answers myself.
Your understanding of freedom, which you quite arrogantly suggest you have the answer to, is tripe.
It's not my answer.All i said was that some mistake freedom for license.Freedom is choosing to do the moral good or ought.That's all i said.
And license is doing whatever i want.There's a diff.You can call it tripe,but it's not.
GB!~
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10/9/2006, 6:33 pm
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Lesigner Girl
Minerva
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Re: I am not anti Muslim
Much of it isn't consistent so i am hoping someone who knows what Islam really teaches would make it clear.
I (and probably most other non-Christians) would say the same about Christianity.
I know some things about Islam.Basics.
Based on your post where you quote parts of the Qu'ran, I would say that someone who reads a few books of the Old Testament of your Bible would gain the same understanding of Christianity that you seem to have of Islam.
Likewise, the different denominations of Christianity can't agree on a lot of things, so if there is any disagreement between "true" Muslims like you claim, it wouldn't be any different than Christianity in that respect.
Your understanding of freedom, which you quite arrogantly suggest you have the answer to, is tripe.
Freedom is choosing to do the moral good or ought.
That is your opinion, not the actual definition.
Definitions of Freedom:
• the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints
• Freedom refers, in a very general sense, to the state of being free (i.e.: unrestricted, unconfined or unfettered).
• Freedom is the right, or the capacity, of self-determination,as an expression of the individual will.
• A political condition that permits freedom of choice and action for individuals and also for individuals and groups to participate in the decisions and operation of the society and the political system.
• Complex philosophical concept referring to an individual or group's ability, right, or possibility of self-determination or political independence. Often associated to the concept of human free will, our individual capacity to choose our own destiny rather then follow the dictates of others, nature, or even supernatural forces. The concept of Freedom has been defined in very different ways depending on the school of thought, philosophical branch, or discipline that attempts to define it. ...
There are more on that page, but nowhere does it say that morality has any bearing on freedom whatsoever. Would you like to tell us where you acquired that belief?
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10/10/2006, 1:33 am
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