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Minerva
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Seeing unity in diversity (religion)


I myself do not believe in a "Supreme Being," but this page has a beautiful message behind it for theists and atheists alike:

Jesus, Buddha & Krishna are one!

Excerpts:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?' He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'" (Luke 10:25-28).


"And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." (Luke 9:49-50). A Buddhist that is not against Jesus is for Jesus.


Love and the Ego:

An ego-centered Christian says, "Jesus is the only way" and an ego-centered Muslim says, "Islam is the only way." The translation of both statements is, "My way or the highway." The ego is the opposite of love.


The ego is motivated by, "What's in it for me?" Love asks, "How may I serve you?" The ego is Satan in us. Love is God in us.


While I don't believe "God" or "Satan" exist, I do agree with that last statement in the metaphorical sense. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to have just enough ego to take care of one's own well-being, but we should keep it in balance with enough love to make sure we're not trampling on others to do so.

'Love your neighbor as yourself' is a good rule to follow, whether you think it'll get you into some eternal state of bliss or not. The first known record of this sort of philosophy came from Egypt, c.1970-1640 BCE, "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do," better known as restated c.100 CE(AD), "In everything, do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." (Read more about the ethic of reciprocity.)

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1/5/2006, 7:26 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
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One might choose to stand in the middle of the highway and proclaim their non-belief in trucks. It won't matter much because the truck believes in you...

Another quote you might find in the bible as well..."the gospel is foolishness to those who perish" or in other words to a non believer it is just a book that won't be understood by them. To a believer it becomes the living word of God, and that has to be experianced to be understood.

I kind of like your board, hope my comments are received in the love they were sent.
See 1 Corinthians 13:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2013:2&version=31
2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

In Christian love,
Brother David

1/15/2006, 5:01 am Link to this post PM Brother David Read Blog
 
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Minerva
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Re: Seeing unity in diversity (religion)


Welcome to the Temple, Brother David, and thank you for posting your views.

If one has eyes to see and ears to hear, it would be foolish of them to stand in the middle of the highway and proclaim their non-belief in trucks while one is coming right at them. Obviously the trucks are there, as the eyes and ears can witness their existence. The trucks, on the other hand, cannot believe in you or me, since a truck has no capacity to believe in anything.

While there are many quotes one could take from the Bible and believe it is true, one could also take many quotes from one of Plato's books and believe in Atlantis. Both were written by men, hundreds of years after the alleged events, using imaginative stories to make their points.

While the writers of the biblical stories were quite eloquent and seemingly intelligent, they had limited knowledge of the world and couldn't possibly have all the answers. This is witnessed by the fact they claimed Joshua conquered a thriving city at Jericho, when nobody even lived there at that time.

My use of biblical quotes are for those who believe it is the word of God. Since I do not hold that belief, quoting the Bible will have no impact on my moral or ethical values. I hold dearly the values of love, acceptance, honesty, and respect, but I don't have to believe in God to do so.

Thanks again for posting, Brother David, and I hope you will post again. The point of this place is to give differing viewpoints a voice, and help us to better understand each other. emoticon

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1/15/2006, 8:06 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
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Thankyou for your welcoming message.
You are watching your message forum with some diligence no doubt. Also pleased to hear from another who holds to the value of love which I believe was the true and fundamental message AND which at times is lost in the generated noise. Love does no harm to its neighbor, love brings acceptance, respect and honesty. On another note I did not intend to quote the bible to impact you in any way...sorry if it seemed so, as I would not cast my pearls as such. The verse was offered in explanation only of myself...that I am nothing if I have not love. That love extends to everyone - whether of any faith, or otherwise. To love all equally and more than oneself is a goal to which I aspire and the only one that seems of value. Everything else passes away, wears out or dies.

Speaking for myself, I see the truck (metaphorically that is) so I am bemused when others can't. It's not their choice however, whether the truck is visible. The one who has the power, decides to whom He is revealed which is both logical and biblical. It seems that humanity attempts to define reality based only on what humanity can touch, taste, see, feel, even when obviously we cannot hear or see in the extended spectrum even other (simpler?)living organisms on this planet can. It's an ego thing, we don't want to entertain the notion we may not be at the top of the food chain. It is unprobable we are the best there is out there, although it does stroke the ego.

You have some exposure interest in religion or philosophy or both and I enjoy your writings. You had posted on a Christian site and I followed you back to this forum. Best wishes for success Lesigner Girl.

Go in peace, my peace I leave with you.
Brother David

1/15/2006, 7:44 pm Link to this post PM Brother David Read Blog
 
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Minerva
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Re: Seeing unity in diversity (religion)


You're welcome, Brother David! emoticon

Yep, I like to stop by often to check for new posts, especially from new members. I don't want anyone to feel like they're being ignored. emoticon

I agree that love brings with it many other good values, and when a person loves somebody else, they want to do good things for that person. Imagine if everyone in this world could love all of humanity unconditionally and only wanted to help others, the world would be a much better place. Ahh, if only that were possible...

Sorry I misconstrued your intent behind the quote. Your goal to love all equally and more than yourself is a beautiful one, but make sure you don't neglect yourself in the process. In case of a crash landing, you have to be able to put your own oxygen mask on to be of any help to others. emoticon

I'm curious. What does the truck look like to you? Also, why would He reveal Himself to some and not to others? The latter is something I don't often hear, and usually it is said that He wants everyone to hear His word (2 Timothy).

I agree that it's improbable that we could be the best there is. With such a vast universe, as well as so many other species on our own planet, we may even be below average. After all, who are we to say we're better than trees (some of which can live 5,000 years)? Without the other living things in this world, we wouldn't be able to survive. I have no problem with the idea that there could be something better, but I also want something better for humanity than what we have right now.

I'm glad you enjoy my writings. Thank you for the compliment, and for your well wishes. Interestingly enough, I'm more interested in religion now than I was when I believed in God, because religion affects all of us more than I ever realized, whether we believe or not. I've also done more philosophizing than ever before, and I have so much in my head lately that words don't seem adequate to express. I'll keep trying, though. emoticon

Have a wonderful night! emoticon

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1/16/2006, 3:10 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
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It’s hard to know where to start… In the metaphor of the environment you have provided (the Temple of Illusia) I would begin by stating my relief and pleasure that we have both put away our (s)words to engage in friendly dialogue.

So what does the truck look like you ask? Okay…here it is
We co-exist with a spiritual world. That is the truck.

For now… let’s stay away from the semantics of labeling this presence(s). This “spiritual world” interacts with us in the form akin to let’s say inspiration (for lack of a better neutral word), to sway us to do and act in a positive, neutral, or negative manner towards others, the environment – and in turn interacting with others towards us. This (inspired?) behavior runs the full spectrum of our human capability from great love and compassion to great evil and destruction. In essence we can be engaged in a spiritual battle where we are often the pawns unless we see this world for “all” that it is... Free will yes - but not without influence.

A person without faith navigating this spiritually interactive environment is highly vulnerable. (Empty spaces tend to get occupied) To make matters worse, bad spiritual forces will masquerade as good spiritual forces, much like bad people pass themselves off as good people. And there is “false belief” in all manner of religions including within my own faith. There are the false believers who use all the “buzz words” and “key phrases” and “made up experiences” to try to convince others their belief system is the real one. There are TV evangelists selling salvation and healing for $$ and making political statements and worse - but we both know all this. Former Christians who experience this hypocrisy, (I am one), tend to get inoculated against their faith and even embittered. This is a victory for the “dark side” to borrow a Hollywood term and a tactic used to sideline potentially effective persons in the battle.

To answer your question more directly, my personal faith experience manifested in the form of a “call to action”. Far louder than a thought, or an inspired idea - more like a shouting thought, (very loud, very unique and very real.) It came long after I had deserted and turned my back on my childhood religion of Christianity. But now I see the world for what it is; a test, a trust, and a battleground for our eternal life force.

But I am becoming rude by speaking so much and not listening more as I should. After all I am your guest and wish to conduct myself in a manner so befitting. What do you see when you view the world? Is it the “reality” some would cling to in perpetual distraction until their mortality kicks in?

You asked some other great questions in your last response that perhaps we might spin into separate topics to elicit broader participation. It seems shorter is better, as larger multifaceted discussions discourage other posters. In closing I might add that everything in life happens for a reason - it is no accident that I stumbled to the Temple of Illusia.

Best wishes,
Brother David
1/19/2006, 10:01 pm Link to this post PM Brother David Read Blog
 
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Re: Seeing unity in diversity (religion)


I'm sorry if I caused you stress from which you felt the need to be relieved, but I'm glad you are now relieved. I want you to state your feelings and opinions here, whether I agree with them or not. I want to learn, and I want others to learn, from each other's viewpoints. Ignorance breeds bigotry and hatred, and I can only hope that everyone who posts here will be as open-minded and willing to listen to differing viewpoints as you are, and will post respectfully like you. emoticon

I think I can envision your view of the world, and if I've misunderstood, please correct me: To put labels back on, the good inspiration might be what some people call God, the bad inspiration might be called Satan, and the gray areas might be considered the two influences working against each other in a tug of war, sometimes cancelling each other out? My own view is not so spiritual, the good inspiration would be things like love and conscience, and the bad would be things like ignorance, misunderstanding and greed. Some people may argue that love and conscience come from "God," while I attribute it more to evolution. I agree with you that discussions which are too multifaceted can discourage other posters, and I think the topic of where morals and ethical/unethical choices come from deserves its own topic.

When I look at the world, I do ponder the existence of spirituality. If it exists, what form does it take? Does spirituality have to be supernatural, or can it simply entail being in harmony with one's self and one's surroundings? If the latter, then I suppose one could call me spiritual. If the former, then I doubt there is such a thing as spirituality.

I do know it's quite possible that this life will be the only one I get. Immortality, to me, means leaving a legacy behind, whether it's in the fleeting memories of those still alive, in the art that one creates, or in ideas that have changed the world. When considering my own mortality, I can only hope that I have made a positive difference in this world. After I'm dead, I don't think it will make a difference to me one way or the other... but if I'm wrong, I doubt I would have any reason to regret how I lived my life.

I don't think you are being rude for posting your views and asking questions in return. On the contrary, I think you've got a good balance with that, and if it takes a lot of words to adequately explain your views, then you should use as many words as it takes.

The thought of everything happening for a reason (as in "fate," not as in "Hitler committed genocide for his own reasons" ) is one that I sometimes ponder. Of course, this would come back to "supernatural" spirituality and everything being connected, which I have no "belief" of either for or against, but lean more toward "thinking" it does not exist, based on the lack of evidence. Could it be that things don't all happen for a reason, but we instead stumble upon things that can be beneficial to ourselves and/or others if we happen to use these stumblings as opportunities?

Whether fate or not, I am glad you have found this place. emoticon

I prefer to view the world through my five senses, without assuming (without evidence) that there is something more. Since there is no evidence either for or against anything supernatural, any ideas I may have or hear concerning anything supernatural, I see only as ponderings. Ponderings can make for some wonderful dreams and I do like to partake in them at times, but I am careful to not actually "believe" in anything (belief does not require evidence), to avoid basing my life on illusion.

You say a person without faith is highly vulnerable and empty spaces tend to get occupied. I say "faith" is like "belief," neither of which require evidence. Where are these empty spaces, and what tends to occupy them?

I look forward to your next post. emoticon

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1/20/2006, 6:23 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
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Re: Seeing unity in diversity (religion)



This physical phase we are presently experiencing will pass away, giving way to the opportunity for a spiritual life. I heard it said somewhere that humans postulating on their heavenly or spiritual existence would be like a bunch of horses getting together to discuss what it would be like to be a human. In their horsiness they don’t likely comprehend the attributes of humanness. (although I am not beyond believing they might...but I digress.)

Lots of earth creatures like the frog and the butterfly go through various phases or forms. Perhaps they were happier as tadpoles or caterpillars...it would be difficult to say.

My formal education and background was scientific, logical, skeptical, with a stroke or two of cynicism for humor. Seeing is believing - was the order of my day.

Neither could I - find God in a church, or in someones interpretation of the Bible. Ultimately it was for me a choice...made easier through loss. But still the first step was mine - no God came to meet me halfway to wave me in for a safe landing. I am sure for those who make it, that their case is as unique as the persons themselves and their circumstances. Faith is a journey and not a destination as some might believe. There are detours, hazards and false starts abound.

And it's harder for those who have been hurt, dissapointed or betrayed by the church and unfortunately this happens. We need to remember that Jesus was killed by his own church for rebelling against it. The church of that day was the enemy of Jesus...as He was their enemy. Killing him turned out to be like; trying to put out a fat-fire with water. (It just spreads everywhere.) People who witnessed his death went into hiding and strangely came out in great numbers to die for their faith days after his death, claiming that he reappeared. Murdering Christians for their faith was good Roman sport in those days, and they were encouraged by those of Jewish faith who had been unsuccessful in their attempts to squash the early Christian church.

It is said that the most compelling arguement for Christianity today is the enormous number of lives changed by that found relationship with Jesus. Worldwide the Christian church is growing, sadly it is only waning in my own Country and my fair neighbor south, where we all enjoy a lifestyle forged on the backs of developing countries and their people. These oppressed and underdeveloped nations are angry at our opulence and will soon be ready to fight for their share of the pie. (We ain't seen nuthin yet...)

The human condition is to be blamed. We are motivated by greed - we want what our neighbors have while leaving others hungry and diseased. We want their cheap labor to manufacture goods and commodities and their natural resources to fuel our homes and cars and lifestyles. We will kill them to get it, and they are willing to die to stop us. Make no mistake that this is not a holy war. The church of Islam in it's beliefs neither supports suicide or the taking of innocent lives. Neither does Christianity but that doesn't stop human kind from murdering for greed under the guise of some Holy or Political agenda. By their fruit you will know them, (the false brothers).

I am sorry for those in the church who have dissapointed you, betrayed your trust and hurt you. Your animosity is scarcely hidden towards them. More than just sorry, I apologize personally for their hypocrisy - for their not caring as much for you, as you obviously do for the world. You have a caring heart and that is a rare and precious commodity these days.

Go in peace Lesigner Girl, go in that love for humankind that you posess. Let go the anger towards those who professed or would claim to follow God - they are not worthy of your time. Take care that hatred does not rise to fill "empty spaces" found in your "heart". Far better that your intellect and caring advanced your own dreams and search for truth.

Lesigner Girl,
     God is love.

For you I sincerely offer this traditional Irish blessing:

"May the road rise up to meet you; may the wind always be at your back. May the sun shine warm upon your face, the rains fall soft upon your field, and until we meet agin, May God hold you in the palm of his hand."

in His service,
Brother David






1/24/2006, 5:37 am Link to this post PM Brother David Read Blog
 
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Minerva
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Re: Seeing unity in diversity (religion)


Welcome back, BD!

I was just finishing up my last post and getting ready to go to bed, so I will have to respond to yours tomorrow. I want to be able to give it due consideration without rushing through it, and judging by its length, I doubt that would be possible tonight, lol.

I promise to respond before this time tomorrow, possibly a couple of hours sooner.

Have a wonderful night! emoticon

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1/24/2006, 5:45 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 
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Re: Seeing unity in diversity (religion)


Hi BD,

Sorry it took me so long to post this. I seem to have gone 25 minutes over my promise. emoticon

This physical phase we are presently experiencing will pass away, giving way to the opportunity for a spiritual life. I heard it said somewhere that humans postulating on their heavenly or spiritual existence would be like a bunch of horses getting together to discuss what it would be like to be a human. In their horsiness they don’t likely comprehend the attributes of humanness. (although I am not beyond believing they might...but I digress.)

The difference is, horses can see us and know we exist. How can we possibly know if there is something after this life?

Lots of earth creatures like the frog and the butterfly go through various phases or forms. Perhaps they were happier as tadpoles or caterpillars...it would be difficult to say.

I wonder if most of us were happier in our mothers' wombs, lol. Considering how most of us cry when we first come out...

My formal education and background was scientific, logical, skeptical, with a stroke or two of cynicism for humor. Seeing is believing - was the order of my day.

It's no wonder we get along so well. emoticon Do you think your educational background is why you left the church and formed your own beliefs? It seems to me that could be the case. emoticon

Neither could I - find God in a church, or in someones interpretation of the Bible. Ultimately it was for me a choice...made easier through loss. But still the first step was mine - no God came to meet me halfway to wave me in for a safe landing. I am sure for those who make it, that their case is as unique as the persons themselves and their circumstances. Faith is a journey and not a destination as some might believe. There are detours, hazards and false starts abound.

What is your interpretation of the Bible? Do you take it all literally or do you see some of the stories as parables?

And it's harder for those who have been hurt, dissapointed or betrayed by the church and unfortunately this happens.

I was never hurt by any church I attended. Everyone was always nice to me, and I don't remember noticing any bigotry back then. It wasn't until I stopped believing that I realized how much bigotry some organized religions can cause. But nowadays, I occasionally hear church-going people – who otherwise seem like nice people – making very bigoted remarks. I also see how horribly judgmental they can be, and an uncle of mine is a prime example of that.

We need to remember that Jesus was killed by his own church for rebelling against it. The church of that day was the enemy of Jesus...as He was their enemy. Killing him turned out to be like; trying to put out a fat-fire with water. (It just spreads everywhere.) People who witnessed his death went into hiding and strangely came out in great numbers to die for their faith days after his death, claiming that he reappeared. Murdering Christians for their faith was good Roman sport in those days, and they were encouraged by those of Jewish faith who had been unsuccessful in their attempts to squash the early Christian church.

Whether Jesus the man really existed, or whether he was a made-up personification to describe the events of that era, there is probably a lot of truth to that. I am unaware of any archaological and/or written evidence suggesting that Romans murdered Christians for sport, but I wouldn't rule it out.

It is said that the most compelling arguement for Christianity today is the enormous number of lives changed by that found relationship with Jesus. Worldwide the Christian church is growing, sadly it is only waning in my own Country and my fair neighbor south, where we all enjoy a lifestyle forged on the backs of developing countries and their people. These oppressed and underdeveloped nations are angry at our opulence and will soon be ready to fight for their share of the pie. (We ain't seen nuthin yet...)

I didn't realize the Christian church is still growing, and I still can't understand why there are still so many people who believe the Bible to be both literal and inerrant, when science proves some of the stories to be untrue.

The human condition is to be blamed. We are motivated by greed - we want what our neighbors have while leaving others hungry and diseased. We want their cheap labor to manufacture goods and commodities and their natural resources to fuel our homes and cars and lifestyles. We will kill them to get it, and they are willing to die to stop us.

I won't argue with that. emoticon

Make no mistake that this is not a holy war. The church of Islam in it's beliefs neither supports suicide or the taking of innocent lives. Neither does Christianity but that doesn't stop human kind from murdering for greed under the guise of some Holy or Political agenda. By their fruit you will know them, (the false brothers).

Sadly, I think some people do believe they are fighting a holy war. There are passages in the Bible that condone genocide (Amalek, for one example), and since the Qu'ran is based on the same ancient writings, there are probably some in there, too.

I think the majority (or at least a lot) of Christian Americans probably believe that we are only fighting terrorists and that the innocent death toll is minimal. I wonder how many actually realize the fact that we have been bombing them relentlessly for over a decade, which makes their opposition to our presence there understandable.

I envision most of the Muslims in Iraq as being more like the Jews during the holocaust. Both peaceful and nonconfrontational, even when they are being killed by the thousands. It's too bad they can't seem to relate to each other in the same way.

I am sorry for those in the church who have dissapointed you, betrayed your trust and hurt you. Your animosity is scarcely hidden towards them.

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I stopped believing in God long before I realized the extent of the problems that organized religion have caused. I used to write off groups like the KKK and neo-nazis as bigots who twisted their interpretation of the Bible to justify their hatred. I even used to think the same thing about Dubya. But after reading the Bible almost cover to cover and some portions more than once, I finally realized how they could actually believe the hatred they preached.

I used to think that bigoted Christians were bigoted despite their religion, because I thought that all real Christians were taught the same moral standards that I held, but that they were just ignorant of people who are "different." But after reading the Bible and weighing it against the behavior I had seen, heard, and read about, it was pretty apparent that many were bigoted because that's what they were taught in church. Then I went back and studied things like the Crusades and the Inquisitions that were conducted by the church, and went back over other major historical events like the Holocaust, the Salem witch trials and slavery, and there is just too much overwhelming evidence... Many Christian churches have, in fact, been the root cause of a lot of bigotry and hatred, resulting in murder, genocide, war, and other atrocities.

More than just sorry, I apologize personally for their hypocrisy - for their not caring as much for you, as you obviously do for the world. You have a caring heart and that is a rare and precious commodity these days.

I appreciate the thought, but there's no need for you to apologize. Only one person has wronged me personally due to his Christianity, and you obviously don't share his beliefs.

Thank you also for the kind words. You seem to be quite caring yourself. emoticon


Go in peace Lesigner Girl, go in that love for humankind that you posess. Let go the anger towards those who professed or would claim to follow God - they are not worthy of your time. Take care that hatred does not rise to fill "empty spaces" found in your "heart". Far better that your intellect and caring advanced your own dreams and search for truth.

I'm not driven by hatred, but by the desire to replace ignorance with knowledge, and come closer to world peace through understanding. Obviously I can't do that on my own, but I want to do what I can.

The Irish blessing is very sweet, thank you. If only all religious writings could be so positive, the world would be a much better place. emoticon

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1/25/2006, 6:09 am Link to this post PM Lesigner Girl Read Blog
 


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