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BaneBlade
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Ooops!


Anyone get the plates on that satellite?


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2/12/2009, 1:38 am Send Email to BaneBlade   Send PM to BaneBlade
 
Corvus

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Re: Ooops!


Had to happen eventually, with as much crap as we're leaving up there. emoticon
2/12/2009, 3:53 am Send Email to Corvus   Send PM to Corvus
 
QS2
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Re: Ooops!


Those debris fields up there are starting to get slightly problematic though, on the flip slide, we are still a long long way from finishing our Saturn like rings. emoticon
2/12/2009, 7:03 am  
 
Firlefanz
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Re: Ooops!


Eventually, we'll have to find a way to capture that debris. Otherwise some orbits will become completely useless - and we sure don't wont to risk space travel through junk.

I'm curious as to what people come up with. emoticon

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QS2
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Re: Ooops!


I vote we build gigantic laser canons with which we'll blast them out of our skies! emoticon
2/12/2009, 4:08 pm  
 
Firlefanz
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Re: Ooops!


Won't that just make more mikroparticles?

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Reythia
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Re: Ooops!


We were just talking about this at lunch. First off, according to my boss's inside sources, the collision wasn't between two communications satellites. Instead, it was a (powered) Iridium satelllite and an old, uncontrolled piece of a Russian launch vehicle. The Russian piece was large and well-tracked, meaning that either the Iridium people weren't watching the website where near-approaches are listed OR the guys doing the tracking somehow dropped the ball. No one at lunch knew which was the case. (I've got a project meeting this afternoon, where the topic might come up, and if I learn more, I'll pass it along.) In any case, if it turns out that the near-approach WAS listed, then Iridium pretty much did it to themselves. The Russians had no control over the rocket part and had long ago listed it as space debris, which is all they could have done (and exactly what American, European, etc companies and governments do in similar situations). So if you hear anyone muttering about how Iridium should sue Russia (somehow!), feel free to laugh in their faces! If it turns out that the trackers missed it, then there's a potential for sueing, maybe, but that's it.

quote:

Firlefanz wrote:
Won't that just make more mikroparticles?


YES. And that's a MAJOR problem. Remember, this collision happened at some 800 km above the Earth. That's a well-populated orbital -- and worse, the 500km between it and the atmosphere are even more populated. When the two bodies collided, they must have hit pretty directly (not a glancing blow), because there are literally thousands of little particles up there now, billowing out like a cloud. As time goes by, two things will happen. First, the cloud will disperse even wider, in all dimensions. Second, the particles will begin descending, even faster than the unpowered Russian piece had been before (since the collision and division of the satellites would have taken some of the kinetic energy that was keeping the orbit(s) more or less stable). What this means is that, in some months or years, the cloud will descend through the LEO region and eventually burn up in the atmosphere. That's fine.

What isn't fine is that this cloud will be passing through a highly-populated orbital, leading to potential collisions and near-approaches with other satellites. Worse, whereas it was easy enough to track a large Russian launcher piece, it is much harder to track thousands of tiny unpowered, non-reflective bits. Frankly, the smallest can't be tracked with today's technology and no idea where they currently are or even IF they current are. Meaning that they might crash into something else without giving anyone any warning that it was going to happen, and thus no way of avoiding it.

Things are not all gloom and doom, though. This isn't the first cloud of space particles floating around up there. Remember when the Chinese shot down their own satellite last year? Well, the main reason the international aerospace community was so ticked off wasn't that they proved they could destroy a satellite. We can all do that. It was that they left a gazillion little pieces in orbit, which could cause future damage. And they still could, but they haven't yet. And it's possible that neither this recent collision nor the Chinese foolishness will ever amount to any damage. Space is VAST, even orbital space. One of the things we were all so shocked at when we heard the news today was that the satellites actually hit each other! That's remarkably rare. And a collision of two things the size of full satellites is even rarer, since those are tracked so well. Talk about finding (or hitting!) a needle in a haystack!

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BaneBlade
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Re: Ooops!


quote:

Reythia wrote:

We were just talking about this at lunch. First off, according to my boss's inside sources, the collision wasn't between two communications satellites. Instead, it was a (powered) Iridium satelllite and an old, uncontrolled piece of a Russian launch vehicle. The Russian piece was large and well-tracked, meaning that either the Iridium people weren't watching the website where near-approaches are listed OR the guys doing the tracking somehow dropped the ball. No one at lunch knew which was the case. (I've got a project meeting this afternoon, where the topic might come up, and if I learn more, I'll pass it along.) In any case, if it turns out that the near-approach WAS listed, then Iridium pretty much did it to themselves. The Russians had no control over the rocket part and had long ago listed it as space debris, which is all they could have done (and exactly what American, European, etc companies and governments do in similar situations). So if you hear anyone muttering about how Iridium should sue Russia (somehow!), feel free to laugh in their faces! If it turns out that the trackers missed it, then there's a potential for sueing, maybe, but that's it.




I suppose it's time for me to come clean and admit I didn't actually read the article I linked! I heard about this from a friend. We're involved in a hobby project linking communication networks for emergency use and disasters. We knew relatively quickly it was one of Iridiums satellites. At present Iridium is reporting some intermittant service outages, but they seem to be very isolated. We have a "metric ton" of users on the Iridium network and no one I know has reported any service interruptions. Globalstar is not very popular around these parts. emoticon I'm involved on the internet end so most of it is beyond me.

From what I was told it shouldn't take them long to get a replacement out of storage orbit as they have multiple spares. The military agency that tracks sats ( the DOD's Space Surveillance Network) did not have any warning for Iridium that day. But they generally do not focus on private companies satellites (They're more geared towards protecting shuttle missions and the ISS) and I'm not sure if they even have the resources to. Apparently someone in Russia was blaming NASA without knowing that it's not NASA's job.

And if I remember correctly Socrates-GEO did not have one either(which is unusual as they usually have one up simply due to the large number of satellites Iridium has in orbit. 65 or 66 I think.)

You'll note Iridium currently has one in the top ten.


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2/13/2009, 3:54 pm Send Email to BaneBlade   Send PM to BaneBlade
 
BaneBlade
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On the subject of clearing spatial debris...I'm told someone should look up the laser broom proposal, ablation cascade (I'm stealing that one for a story), the Kessler Syndrome and post links. I'm on my way to work or I would. emoticon

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2/13/2009, 3:59 pm Send Email to BaneBlade   Send PM to BaneBlade
 
QS2
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Well I did propose making a 'laser canon' to solve the problem, no doubt everyone thought I was joking. emoticon
Still to help out, relevant Wiki links are for a laser broom and the Kessler Syndrome here. Sooo, discuss and lets see what you all think about these ideas. emoticon
2/13/2009, 4:43 pm  
 
Reythia
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Correction! Quoth my boss, who provided much of my original information:

"I take that part about booster back - it was a Cosmos 2251 Communications Satellite, and I noticed only the word "Cosmos" and not the remaining 3 words..."

You may now all join our work lunch table in mocking my boss (to his face, naturally). Who'd have ever thought the Russians would name two space-going vehicles different things, both with the word "space" in the name?! emoticon

Just wanted to post the correction, in case it was bothering anyone else.

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David Meadows
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Re: Ooops!


quote:

Reythia wrote:
Just wanted to post the correction, in case it was bothering anyone else.



It slightly bothered me, because I believed you and thought the other news sources I read must be wrong emoticon



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QS2
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Ehh..., I was wondering about it as well and was wondering if your boss might have by accidentally misread it..., all the other sources were rather consistent on it after all. emoticon
2/20/2009, 1:01 pm  
 
Reythia
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quote:

David Meadows wrote:
It slightly bothered me, because I believed you and thought the other news sources I read must be wrong


That's EXACTLY how we all felt when Srinivas said it. He's one of those guys who's just usually right, you know. But then, I've known for a long time that he has the attention span of a goldfish, so I can definitely see him skipping over the ending words of a phrase he already *assumed* he knew!

Anyhow, I just wanted to clear it up.

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Reythia
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This was a pretty good article on the subject, from Space News:

quote:

COLLISION AVOIDANCE PRACTICES QUESTIONED FOLLOWING INCIDENT

By PETER B. de SELDING
Space News Staff Writer

STRASBOURG, France — The Feb. 10 collision of an operational commercial satellite and a spent Russian spacecraft, which has resulted in a decades-long pollution of a widely used orbit, is raising questions about whether the company whose satellite was destroyed had done all it could to avoid the event, according to government and industry officials.

It also casts scrutiny on the way the U.S. Air Force disseminates information it collects on likely orbital collisions, these experts said.

Several officials said the collision, which produced two clouds of debris that are rapidly spreading above and below the 790-kilometer-high point of impact, might be enough to force the world's spacefaring nations to join forces to create a space traffic management agency whose data would be available to all nations with space-based assets.

Others were less optimistic. The dramatic in-orbit collision of the operational Iridium 33 satellite with the retired Russian Cosmos 2251 is the third event in two years drawing attention to the orbital debris issue in low Earth orbit. A Chinese anti-satellite test destroyed a retired Chinese satellite and unleashed thousands of pieces of debris at nearly the same altitude in early 2007, and the U.S. government sent a missile to destroy one of its own classified satellites a year later, saying the satellite's imminent atmospheric re-entry posed a hazard to people.

"Are these enough to dramatize the nature of the issues relating to space security? I'm not sure," said John M. Logsdon, chair in aerospace history at the U.S. National Air and Space Museum in Washington. "Maybe it will only happen when we face a loss of life, if debris destroys the international space station. Do we have to kill people to pay attention? That seemed to be the case with the [U.S. space] shuttle."

Logsdon made his remarks Feb. 20 during a space security conference here organized by the International Space University.

The U.S. Air Force is willing to help coordinate an international effort to create a space traffic management system whose goal would be to reduce the chances of a repeat of the Feb. 10 collision, said Air Force Brig. Gen. Michael J. Carey, deputy director of U.S. Strategic Command.

The Air Force has neither the resources nor the political mandate to stand watch over all commercial satellites, and the collision illustrates "the need to make information sharing more international," Carey told the conference Feb. 18. "If we don't operate safely in space then we don't have assured anything in space. We need a broader international engagement. We are actively seeking opportunities to put a coherent plan together."

But several officials questioned whether Iridium Satellite LLC has devoted sufficient resources to protecting not only its 66-satellite constellation, but the entire orbit in which it operates. The collision will render the Iridium orbit a more dangerous place to operate for all satellites, especially Iridium. One government official said a preliminary analysis suggests the several hundred pieces of debris created by the collision have roughly doubled the likelihood that another Iridium satellite will be struck.

 

The Iridium voice and data communications constellation is operated by Boeing Satellite Operations and Ground Systems of Leesburg, Va. Boeing officials declined to comment on the events leading up to the Feb. 10 collision.

Liz DeCastro, spokeswoman for Bethesda, Md.-based Iridium, said Iridium also would decline to discuss in detail what collision-avoidance measures it takes to protect its fleet and the orbital environment.

"Regarding the sequence of events that led to the collision, we may never know exactly what happened since we had no heads-up that it was coming," DeCastro said. "Our team that monitors our constellation saw that the satellite was missing when it went missing. We didn't move the satellite because we didn't know we had reason to."

Other officials cast a different light on the subject. The French space agency, CNES, which operates 15 satellites in low Earth orbit and tracks possible collision threats, reviewed the publicly available U.S. Space Surveillance Network data for the Iridium and Cosmos satellites that was released in the days preceding the collision. This same information is available to Boeing and Iridium.

Monique Moury, who works in the operational flight dynamics directorate at CNES, said the raw data alone coming from the U.S. Air Force would have been sufficient for CNES to perform a more-detailed analysis of the possible collision threat if the satellite in question had been CNES-controlled.

The U.S. Air Force data, called two-line elements, suggested that the likelihood of a collision between the Iridium and Cosmos satellites was 1 in 10,000. Given the known imprecision of the two-line-element data, that level of warning is enough to force CNES to take a second look, Moury said Feb. 20.

Unlike Iridium, CNES has at its disposal ground-based radars that, when used in conjunction with the U.S. two-line-element data, can provide a more-precise assessment of whether a given satellite faces a problem serious enough to warrant a collision-avoidance maneuver.

Whether Boeing and Iridium take two-line-element data into account in flying the Iridium constellation is unclear. Iridium's satellites were launched between 1997 and 1999 and designed to last for just five years. All are thus well past their planned service lives. Iridium officials have said in the past that they and Boeing do their utmost to save fuel, and have had to use fuel on some satellites to compensate for the loss of moment wheels, which provide satellite attitude control.

For a constellation in low Earth orbit, two-line-element data would present potential collision alerts so often that Iridium cannot respond to each one with a detailed examination and possible evasive maneuver, industry and government officials said.

"They would be reacting so often they wouldn't do much else," said Brian Weeden of the Secure World Foundation, which the week of Feb. 16 proposed a global space traffic management system to the U.N. Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. Weeden said Feb. 20 that each operator is free to take two-line-element information into account, or not.
 
"There is no real industry standard for how to react to two-line data," Weeden said. "It comes down to each owner-operator's cost-benefit analysis." In addition to the use of fuel in performing an avoidance maneuver, a serious attempt to track threats for a constellation like Iridium would involve substantial spending on technical expertise, Weeden said.

Carey said that while the U.S. Air Force has compiled a catalog of objects being tracked in space, "we don't do conjunction analyses for all 18,000 objects in the catalog. Our first priority is human spaceflight. The next is our national security assets. Then you get to where you run out of opportunity and time to do conjunction analyses on all operating spacecraft. It would be a daunting task, and it's one we are not assigned to do."

But the published two-line elements are not the only database the U.S. Air Force regularly collects from its ground-based sensors. A second, more-precise database of the same population of orbital objects is also kept but is made available only in exceptional circumstances. This high-accuracy data is viewed as being too militarily sensitive to release publicly, officials said.

Commercial satellite operators may ask the Air Force to check the high-accuracy database to determine whether a given satellite faces an especially high probability of collision. Weeden said that in these cases, the Air Force takes the satellite operator's information and then performs a check against the high-accuracy data before returning a higher-reliability threat analysis.

But the procedure can take days — too long to help operators of satellites in low Earth orbit. For these operators, the maximum time they have to react is about a week from the time they receive the basic two-line-element data until the time of potential impact.



I suppose it still surprises me that the only group in the whole world that watches where all the satellites are is the US Airforce. With so many commercial satellites up there, one would think that companies might be interested as well. Though, I suppose, it might be better to collect all the data at just one place, and then just distribute it better. It surprises me that the various telecommincations companies haven't gotten together and said, "You know, if we all pooled our resources, we could do a bang-up job of tracking, much better than the military does in the spare time they spend looking at our satellites." If they started from the Airforce's TLEs (the two-line elements the article talked about) and just did their own "double-check" job whenever the TLEs looked iffy, they ought to be able to get much better accuracy on the predictions. CNES does it and so does NASA, so why don't commercial groups? It's not a technically difficult matter.

Of course, they may figure that in a cost-benefit analysis, one lost satelite here or there is cheap compared to the price of paying a dozen people to track their satellites every day. Which is definitely true right now. On the other hand, more and more satelites are going up all the time, often into similar orbits. Eventually it'll get to the point where they'll HAVE to pay attention to the TLEs (or some other, better multi-satelite location and collision analysis tool).

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Reythia
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quote:

QS2 wrote:
Well I did propose making a 'laser canon' to solve the problem, no doubt everyone thought I was joking. emoticon
Still to help out, relevant Wiki links are for a laser broom and the Kessler Syndrome here.


Okay, so the "Kessler syndrome" I've known about (though I didn't know it had a name!). Definitely a possible domino effect, yes.

I glanced over a few of the Wiki-links to the laser broom, but really couldn't figure out how it would work! I mean, it's hard to tell even if the laser is supposed to be a ground station, or attached to the ISS, or a free-flying satelite, or what! I definitely don't have any idea how -- or even IF -- it would work, based on these articles. Do you know any more about it, QS?

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QS2
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The idea is to use the laser to change the momentum on incoming debris for instance, though vaporising a target is also an option of course. In the first case you push things away from you to a non collision course, in the second case the gas particles obviously aren't massive enough to cause damage and will also become more susceptible to other forcings and thus disappear more quickly then micro-debris. At first glance I'd say the first option is cheaper, but that the second method would solve the problem more permanently.
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2/23/2009, 1:10 pm  
 
Reythia
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QS2 wrote:
In the first case you push things away from you to a non collision course...


Well, a non-collision course with YOU, anyhow. It strikes me that, while this might be useful for a manned system like the ISS, it could cause real troubles for nearby satellites. I mean, basically you're suggesting dramatically changing the orbits of hundreds or thousands of smallish pieces of stuff -- almost certainly without a good prediction of where it's going to end up in a while. Could be messy, especially if you push the junk into a more populated altitude or inclination.

Also, like you say, it wouldn't really solve the problem, just postpone it.

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QS2
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I was thinking about it a bit more and realised how much impulse you could impart on it, if you change the orbit enough you can make it intersect with the atmosphere and be rid of it fairly quickly. However I'm not aware of how much energy this would require compared to say just vaporising it.
2/23/2009, 5:04 pm  
 
Reythia
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Yeah, I'm not sure either. Also, whereas the energy needing to vaporize something would be just a matter of the mass and chemical nature of the space junk, the energy required to push it into the atmosphere would depend upon mass and orbital parameters (mostly altitude/semimajor-axis and eccentricity, which determine velocity). A higher-flying satellite would take more energy to "kill". Also, a satellite in a more eliptic orbit (with the same semimajor axis) should be easier to bring down, if you hit it at the right point (and harder, if you hit it at the wrong one).

But yeah, I don't feel like digging through the chemistry to figure out the vaporization half of the question, either! emoticon I am LAZY.

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QS2
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I found an article which summarises the matter with space debris and removal a bit and tells a bit of the history.
3/12/2009, 4:21 pm  
 
Reythia
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That's a good article, QS. Thanks!

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Firlefanz
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It's also very easy to understand. Thanks!

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Reythia
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Along these lines, the ISS had a near miss recently:

Space Station's Close Call With Junk

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