Firlefanz
Lady of the Land
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Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 1973
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Villains...
I have to admit to a flaw ... I have a hard time writing villains. Could you help me?
What does a villain need to be ... a real villain?
--- - Firlefanz
Reading: "The Golem's Eye" by J. Stroud
Writing: Kiera and the Juggler Boy - YA
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11/28/2006, 7:15 pm
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Loud G
Grand Master
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Registered: 01-2005
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 279
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Re: Villains...
A purpose.
A villain has to have a goal that he works toward.
No matter how twisted their methods, a villains goal is important.
He could want world peace, but only see one way to achieve it.
He could want to personally slaughter all his enemies from elementary school for picking on him.
--- Reading: Mistborn
Writing: Eriadhin
"Life is like a book, except it takes longer to get to the climax."
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11/29/2006, 9:59 pm
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BardNoir
Journeyman
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Registered: 10-2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 84
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Re: Villains...
Expanding on this idea, I'd like to add that the villian's character is just as important as the heroes and more important than his goal.
I like what Jet Li said about playing a Villian. Most who don't know, Jet Li was always the hero in movies back in China and then he became this American Sensation in Lethal Weapon 4 as a bad guy. Having had no experience being a bad guy he said he decided "The Bad Guy is played the same way as the good guy - because he doesn't know he's Bad!"
I play with this concept in all of my stories - I sometimes wonder what the whole plot would be like if the BAD guy was written as the GOOD guy and the Good guys were the bad guys. If I can't do this with my story I feel that the story is as deep as the paper it's written on. Thus I make a villian just like a hero - who simply has contrasting goals. I don't want my villians to be the Dark Wizard hellbent on destroying the world or a village because he can.
A Knoll Shaman who's trying to kill a villiage full of people - that's a villian. But a Knoll Shaman who's trying to keep these humans from taking the land that he feels should belong to his followers and thus is using resources to clear out the "invaders" - that's a story. And almost instantly your Villian should now be driven to fight the "heroes" who are trying to save the lives of the women and children the Knolls are threatening (contrasting goals). He's not just fighting for his own personal gain - he's fighting for a cause!
Stories where the Villian is after money, power and/or The Princess can only get you so far. Stories where the Villian might have been the good guy in another life - those give him depth.
---
"No story that ever began 'So I was playing a Half-Elf, Chaotic-Neutral, Fighter/Thief/Mage' can ever end well." -The Bard Noir
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11/30/2006, 4:34 pm
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Firlefanz
Lady of the Land
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Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 1973
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Re: Villains...
Bardnoir, I like your take on this.
It's true, villains are only people, after all.  I think it makes sense to try to look at a story from their point of view. It should make as much sense as from the hero's point of view, or the villain is lacking.
Thanks, that helps already. Still, I'm not yet comfortable with villains.
--- - Firlefanz
Reading: "The Golem's Eye" by J. Stroud
Writing: Kiera and the Juggler Boy - YA
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12/4/2006, 5:30 pm
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naca
Journeyman
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Registered: 12-2005
Posts: 90
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Re: Villains...
I find it also helps if you go into the story without ever thinking of a villain. Instead, I allow the villian to emerge. In most stories my main character is a person who feels the status quo is unfair to them. They upset the status quo and the villian is just a regular person who wishes to restore it. Of course they never know they're trying to stop or help the status quo. They're just making "Their" life better.
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Currently Writing: Daughter of Rage (YA fantasy)
Currently Reading: Winter's Heart by Robert Jordan
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12/5/2006, 12:34 am
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BardNoir
Journeyman
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Registered: 10-2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 84
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Re: Villains...
Well, that's why I don't think in terms of Villian and Heroes - in most of my stories I try to just write about characters. You can decide who the "villian" is.
I like the terms: Protagonist, Antagonist, Motivational Character and Obstical character.
In a story like "Superman" the Protagonist is Superman. The Motivational Character is Humanity as a whole (that's who he's defending) and somewhat - Lois Lane. The Antagonist AND obstical character would be Lex... but I've actually tried to write a story where my Protagonist's motivational character is also the Antagonist.
Take Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Season 1 for example. The Antagonist is Giles, the watcher. Buffy wants to be a normal girl, but Giles wants her to do her duty (this is contrary to her goal of being normal and left alone) but he's also the motivational character (telling her what event to stop or what demon to fight next) while the demons just serve as Opposition and little more. Later when Buffy does take up the mantel of Slayer we see Giles start to step out of the picture - her motive is now her friends and humanity and since her goals are now in line with his goals he litteraly has little use for the story. The villian meanwhile has to step up the game - but that's all mechanics.
---
"No story that ever began 'So I was playing a Half-Elf, Chaotic-Neutral, Fighter/Thief/Mage' can ever end well." -The Bard Noir
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12/9/2006, 11:19 pm
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mspatric
Initiate
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Registered: 10-2003
Posts: 14
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Re: Villains...
It's okay to have villains that are pure evil. The important thing is not to have VIEWPOINT villains that are pure evil.
Example:
In my fantasy world (shameless plug...) one of the two human villains is a self-taught shaman who was once a slave. Now he wants to unite the world and bring about peace and prosperity to all peoples. Why? Not simply out of his own mistreatment, but because the woman he loved (also a slave) died yearning for such a paradise. Since he can't bring her back, he can at least make her dream a reality. Thus he binds (enslaves) spirits to empower his magic and makes a pact with one of the Old Gods (my tribute to HP Lovecraft). He's become manipulative and cruel, but all out of his very human sense of loss and love.
And this man's "partner":
The Old God also shows up (though he isn't the other main villain), but "he" is completely alien compared to the human experience. Can an ant understand a nuclear reactor? No. And a human could not begin to comprehend "his" goals or state of existence. Can such a creature can be viewed as "pure evil" because the Old God has no relation to humanity? What is love to such a creature? What is hatred? These are human emotions. Thus while such a creature is alien and disturbing, it is also not relatable at all and is mostly a means of advancing the plot.
Which is ultimately more interesting to a reader. I take the stance that the human character is. Does that mean he isn't evil? No. He is putting his own goals ahead of the welfare of everyone else in the world, which is pretty much the simplest definition of evil. He's not trying to help the world, but simply trying to fill the void left in his own heart.
Of course the other main villain is the opposite. That one is out to protect his people, no matter the cost to other groups. He is the completely selfless (or at least that's how he sees it) form of evil that really is fighting for a cause. That villain actually doesn't pretend to be the "good guy". He admits to others quite readily that he is a monster, but a necessary one. He does the dirty work so the "good people" can kiss their children goodnight and sleep safely in their beds at night. What are the lives of one village of nonhumans compared to the welfare of the empire?
Not much...
My overall point is this, there is no absolute evil. That doesn't mean evil doesn't exist. Besides, absolute evil would get boring. FAST.
Last edited by mspatric, 12/24/2006, 10:16 pm
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12/24/2006, 10:09 pm
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