QS2
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The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
I've been thinking about if nuclear weapons in a fantasy world would have more then just physical effects lately (I'll get back to why they might exist briefly later). And the more I think about it, the more it seems ridiculous to me that they wouldn't. And mostly for two reasons really, namely...
1. Anything that powerful would in a fantasy world almost have to influence the magical world.
2. Fission and Fusion weapons derive there powers in the exact same way that the Earths Core and the Sun do.
Leading us to the question, what happens when you unleash the power of the Earth or the Sun on to the surface of a planet? I'm really not quite sure what those would do when brought so close to a planet magically though..., especially there when you think about it, they are both actually Alchemic weapons. This is due to them deriving their power from converting matter from one state to another. So basically they are the ultimate alchemist weapons.  (See, our world is just the victim of mad alchemists  )
So if anyone thinks they could help shed some light on this? And perhaps maybe the idea will even be one day useful for the vanquishing of some age old evil one day then. 
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10/10/2007, 4:40 pm
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Reythia
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
Haha! I like this idea!
Along those lines, you might also point out that your nuclear generators are surrounded by coolants -- because the alchemical fire/earth needs to be balanced by water and air, of course! Maybe these weapons are being used in a war of mages, where the water/air mages would have to counter the nuclear-armed fire/earth ones?
Would using nuclear weapons increase the amount of fire/earth magic left for mages to use, or decrease it? Could go either way, depending on how you set up your universe! Assuming there is a finite amount of magical energy in the world, then you could say:
A.) After the nukes are used, it will be easier to work fire/earth magic, because so much fire/earth magic will have been unleashed on the surface of the planet. Now it's just blowing around in the wind, for any mage to use, instead of being buried deep in the Earth or Sun.
B.) After the nukes are used, it will be harder to work fire/earth magic, because now the magic is greatly dispersed and difficult to pull together into a coherent spell. The total amount of magical energy is the same, but it's harder to harness.
C.) After the nukes are used, it will be easier to work ALL magic, since the huge blast of fire/earth magic from the weapons through the entire planet's magical field out of whack for a certain amount of time.
Which do you prefer? 
---  -- YAR! |
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10/11/2007, 4:11 pm
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Michael58
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
I thought for sure I had posted something here before concerning magical weapons on the scale of nukes, but obviously not since the post isn't here.
There is something similar in Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books, and I like the way she handled it.
Interesting thoughts. But you could also add a:
D. After the nukes are used, it will be harder to work ALL magic.
E. The ease or difficulty of use is sporadic and unpredictable.
I'd say there are lots of possibilities with this idea.
Magical fallout? Hmm...
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10/12/2007, 7:42 am
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David Meadows
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
In Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East, magic is possible *because* there was a nuclear war and that released the magical energy, or mode it available to use, or something. The book starts off with you thinking it's a regular fantasy world then details slowly emerge with make it obviously post-apocalyptic. (I won't go into any details because it will spoil the story for those who might want to read it.)
If you want to put nuclear weapons into a fantasy world, the first question would appear to be, "how did they get there?" If you're in a traditional "high-fantasy" setting, you're not going to get your blacksmith/armourer cobbling together a pocket nuke for you. It's one of the most complex devices known to man. How do you handle plutonium without your minions all dying? (Maybe Orcs are immune to radiation?) How do you make sufficuently accurate electronic timers for the ignition? A water clock isn't going to cut it. Do you even have electricity?
If you're going for a modern-Earth-with-magic, you have the technology you need, of course.
The more I think about it, the more I think that to have nukes you have to be in a modern technological world. They are reliant on too many basic elements of technology being present. It's not a "what if the Romans invented rifles?" situation, where the technology theoretically existed already or could be logically extrapolated from what the Romans knew. "What if the Romans invented nukes?" would require the Romans to have so much pre-requisite technology that they would, effectively, have a civilization already at the level of the 20th century.
--- Review: The Malcolm Arnold Festival, 7 October 2007 |
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10/12/2007, 8:41 am
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
David, I already partially answered the question, it would be the alchemists. As for how to do all that complicated stuff, well you don't cause you don't have to even if you maintain a high physical standard, it turns out that Uranium U-235 that you can forget about most of the precision stuff, you just need to bring together two halves of just sub critical material and I do believe that will just make it explode. (This variant was considered so reliable that they didn't even test it before throwing it on Hiroshima, of course the power is a bit less good then the more complicated Plutonium types, but details. ) Besides, you could just wish the complications away with magic.
Magical fallout incidentally sounds interesting, but how would that look like? Pieces of glowing magical embers? Or some kind of haze falling from the sky? Something else yet? Well I suppose there might be more then one solution to this.
Still one line of thought that seems particularly interesting to me though is the one Reythia mentions though, where you have to balance the fire/earth energy with sky/ice like power around it. It is a cute like balance that makes sense in a magical world as well. Still, if you use fusion power, wouldn't it be fire/air power (Or does the Sun fall into some kind of more celestial class?)? I guess you'd need to encase it with something like Earth/Ice then though, which sounds a bit similar to current fusion reactor suggestions. 
PS It wasn't the nukes, but the anti nuke devices that did it. 
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10/12/2007, 10:22 am
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Reythia
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
If you want to put nuclear weapons into a fantasy world, the first question would appear to be, "how did they get there?" If you're in a traditional "high-fantasy" setting, you're not going to get your blacksmith/armourer cobbling together a pocket nuke for you. It's one of the most complex devices known to man. How do you handle plutonium without your minions all dying? (Maybe Orcs are immune to radiation?) How do you make sufficuently accurate electronic timers for the ignition? A water clock isn't going to cut it. Do you even have electricity?
...The more I think about it, the more I think that to have nukes you have to be in a modern technological world. They are reliant on too many basic elements of technology being present.
Sorry, QS, but I'm going to have to back Meadows on this one. A true nuclear weapon is more complicated than just "bringing together two halves of just sub critical materia" and watching it go BOOM!l One key question, as Meadows asked, is where you're going to get an accurate clock at. After all, transportable modern clocks weren't invented til the 1800s (though a lot of fantasy books conviniently "forget" that fact, so I suppose you could too, though it would break my heart!!).
Also, how are you going to transport the weapon from where it is built to where it needs to be used? Horses aren't likely to cut it -- and would you TRUST a huge bomb on horseback? Nothing faster than that should exist on a pre-industrial planet. Of course, if your magical system involves the ability to fly yourself or other things through the air, then this is a trivial question.
However, where are you planning to GET your "two halves of just sub critical material" in the first place? How are they going to know that putting it together is going to create a BOOM!? When you talked about not testing the bomb before Hiroshima, I sort of ****ed my head to the side and squinted, because a couple of decades of scientific research were required just to make the thing work! That's a great deal of testing -- and it wouldn't have been possible even a hundred years earlier.
Now, in a fantasy book, there are always hand-waving ways to get around these issues -- to "wish the complications away with magic", as you said. But then, if you do that, you're not really interested in the science, are you? You just care about the magic. So why complicate the issue by throwing in painful pseudoscience at all -- you'll only irritate your scientifically-literate readers without really adding anything! At that point, why not just make it a big magical weapon that has nuclear-like results -- due to, say, the massive collision of two opposing types of magic, or something? You can have the same effects (and thus the same entertaining book) without entering into the dark and EVIL realm of pseudoscience...
--- -- YAR! |
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10/12/2007, 3:42 pm
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
As far as I know of my studies of the Uranium device, yes it had some study behind it. But it doesn't require a clock or any silly stuff like that. It is mostly a work of precision engineering. And you could for instance use a gun trigger device for it (which involves shooting one half at the other, this also allows for some compression), as such the big issue in it is to be able to build it to specs. And in all seriousness, magical alchemists with some hand waving can do that. As for how they knew how much? Well I imagine they blew themselves up once or twice.
Any case, technologically seen the theory behind the Uranium device was of course understood, but they never actually tested the device, it was so basic and sure that they just threw it on Hiroshima without really doubting whether it would work.
As for transportation, well yes, that could be a bit tricky, though even in the old days they could move big cannons, so I see no reason they couldn't transport a big bomb to a city or some place else and let it go off. 
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10/12/2007, 4:26 pm
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David Meadows
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
quote:
QS2 wrote:
Any case, technologically seen the theory behind the Uranium device was of course understood, but they never actually tested the device, it was so basic and sure that they just threw it on Hiroshima without really doubting whether it would work.
Trinity, New Mexico, July 16 1945.
quote:
They gave out dark glasses that you could watch it with. Dark glasses! Twenty miles away, you couldn't see a damn thing through dark glasses. So I figured the only thing that could really hurt your eyes (bright light can never hurt your eyes) is ultraviolet light. I got behind a truck windshield, because the ultraviolet can't go through glass, so that would be safe, and so I could see the damn thing. ... I'm probably the only guy who saw it with the human eye.
Richard P. Feynman
--- Review: The Malcolm Arnold Festival, 7 October 2007 |
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10/12/2007, 7:44 pm
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Reythia
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
Is that Feynman the physicist?
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10/12/2007, 8:29 pm
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David Meadows
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
It's Feynman the wizard
quote:
There are two types of genius. Ordinary geniuses do great things, but they leave you room to beleive that you could do the same if only you worked hard enough. Then there are magicians, and you can have no idea how they do it. Feynman was a magician.
--Hans Bethe, Theoretical physicist and Nobel laureat
Feynman is one of my intellectual idols. His writing about his part in developing the Bomb (well, all of his writing, really) is mind blowing.
--- Review: The Malcolm Arnold Festival, 7 October 2007 |
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10/12/2007, 9:48 pm
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Michael58
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
Yeah, it seems kind of odd to say "they never actually tested the thing." However, I can easily imagine an entirely magical technology accomplishing all the requirements to make this happen.
Last edited by Michael58, 10/12/2007, 10:00 pm
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10/12/2007, 9:59 pm
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Reythia
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
quote:
Michael58 wrote:
Yeah, it seems kind of odd to say "they never actually tested the thing." However, I can easily imagine an entirely magical technology accomplishing all the requirements to make this happen.
I agree, Michael. I would enjoy a book about a magical weapon that had similar effects as a nuclear bomb. I would cringe at one that tried to subvert science and have one created by a bunch of magicians with the scientific comprehension of tenth-century scholars. It's odd. Even though I know magic is just as "wrong" as incorrect science, I can deal a lot better with it. I guess I just have a hard time suspending my disbelief about things I know well. Admittedly, my magical know-how is fairly limited, so handwaving there doesn't bother me as much!
Hmm... Reminds me of my reaction to the two Dan Brown books I read (or tried to read). I don't know a particularly huge amount about art, so "DaVinci Code" only bothered me in sections. But when I picked up "Angels and Demons", I couldn't make it through 30 pages. There was just too much that I KNEW was wrong. It caused too much pain... 
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10/12/2007, 10:44 pm
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
Not to be a nuisance, but Trinity was the test for the Plutonium bomb they used on Nagasaki. They literally never tested the Uranium bomb, just dropped it cause they had no doubt it would work.
This also reminds me of how a scientist got seriously irradiated once because he was holding apart two sub critical pieces of fission material, except he made a mistake halfway through the work and they briefly touched giving off a brief blue light as they went near critical or just over, he obviously immediately pulled them apart again. I think he survived that, though I'm not sure he kept his hands...
So anyway, while working with nuclear material is dangerous, it isn't as dangerous or impossible as always cracked up to be. It is far from impossible to do really, though without a good theory you really might blow up a few labs finding out the details. 
One of the biggest problems in nuclear engineering is getting the ultra pure materials you need for it and in fantasy land you can just hand wave that quite easily with magic and alchemy. I shudder to imagine the consequences though if you made them to effective though, imagine converting large amounts of rock into plutonium instantly... would be an unimaginable catastrophe. Well almost unimaginable... computer simulations have kind of made it somewhat understandable I guess...
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10/13/2007, 12:00 am
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David Meadows
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
My apologies, QS2, you are right. The Trinity bomb was a plutonium bomb. The uranium bomb was never tested. Not because they had no doubt it would work -- many of the scientists who worked on it expressed doubts -- but because they, literally, only had enough uranium for one bomb (but they had plenty of plutonium). The bomb components were shipped out to the Pacific before the Trinity test, but the Trinity test still came before the Hiroshima detonation.
Anyway, I'm wandering off your original idea, which was how will a nuclear explosion interfere with magic. I think it is an interesting idea -- but I would rather see it done in a modern-Earth-with-magic, as a mediaeval-Earth-with-nukes stretches my suspension of disbelief a bit much.
--- Review: The Malcolm Arnold Festival, 7 October 2007 |
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10/13/2007, 8:01 am
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
I'll admit I was thinking a bit of a post renaissance era myself, where they at least have enough technical finesse and perhaps theoretical knowledge to at least help them develop something so extreme. With perhaps a good dose of magical hand waving of course.
So I've been thinking about it a bit and a nuclear weapon being Earth, would cause the magical Air element to be blown away from it in a massive gust of air, not? Considering how those two elements are typically thought of as antagonistic.
I'm still not sure how a fusion weapon would class though, is that some kind of celestial weapon? I'm not really sure myself... any one have an idea?
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10/13/2007, 10:01 am
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David Meadows
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
In the Greek model of the elements (at least from Anaximander onwards) the sun and stars were simply the element fire, which is the lightest of the four elements (that fits in with hydrogen!) and therefore sits even above the air.
From that, fusion doesn't have to be a celestial process, it's just a REALLY BIG fire!
If your alchemists can already isolate hydrogen, and they know that hydrogen burns, then by trapping enough of that hydrogen in one place (high pressure plasma) and making it really hot (laser ignition) it's only natural that it would make a bigger bang than the less-hot earth bomb (uranium), as fire is self-evidently more energetic than earth.
(I'm still finding it impossible to imagine how your alchemists are going to create and ignite a hydrogen plasma. If I had that much magical ability, I wouldn't be messing around with something as trivial as a H-bomb!)
---
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Don't kill the trees
Don't kill the butterflies
Don't kill the bees"
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10/13/2007, 10:42 am
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
I'll admit the H-Bomb is more speculative, but just adding deuterium to the core of a fission bomb will already considerably strengthen its explosive power. In real world physics land this is I believe due to it creating intense neutron radiation which will cause more of the fissile material to split.
Thus by adding a bit of celestial fire to an Earth bomb, will greatly strengthen its effects, for the obvious reason of fire being a much more energetic element.
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10/13/2007, 10:56 am
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
Is there any real reason to assume they can't develop somewhat more developed chemical theories? I'm just calling them alchemists, cause that is the typical fantasy term for such people, not?
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10/13/2007, 5:41 pm
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Reythia
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
Well, the trouble I have is that you've said (I think?) that they have the traditional fantasy-book lack of high technology. Yet, if they have the scientific/alchemical understanding required to create an H bomb and comprehend nuclear forces, then why haven't they used that know-how to create OTHER technologies? It just seems too lopsided to be true. For example, why don't they understand how to build a radio yet? What about electricity? It's hard for me to imagine a society that has no concept of electromagnetic forces building a nuclear weapon. That's all.
If, on the other hand, you're talking about something more equivalent to our 1800s society, then I could accept your premise. So, what exactly is the technological state of your hypothetical story?
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10/13/2007, 5:47 pm
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Michael58
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
That's a good question. It really would put a lot of things into perspective.
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10/16/2007, 10:02 am
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
I originally just placed this as a hypothetical question on the matter, I did have a few ideas of possible story settings over this though.
The one that is easiest to deal with though, would be the one where you collide a technological world with a fantasy world though. In example, if a high fantasy world collided with say 20th century earth, via say some hypothetical dimensional portal, then how would that work out?
In such a case the question about what nukes would do would potentially also be of some import.
Hope that helps you then.
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10/16/2007, 4:26 pm
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Loud G
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
All this discussion is frighteningly close to some things I was thinking about for a story I wanted to write. especially the connecting of the fantasy world with the modern world....
yikes 
--- Reading: Mistborn
Writing: Eriadhin
"Life is like a book, except it takes longer to get to the climax."
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10/16/2007, 4:40 pm
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QS2
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Re: The magical effect of a nuclear weapon
I hope it has helped give you a few good ideas then. 
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10/16/2007, 5:19 pm
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