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NISAmericalover13 wrote:

When i started visiting this site, the commentary i was witnessing was arguments between whether there should be dub at all in these games. Japanese voice with english subtitles seems to be the view of the majority of jp gamers. That is inexcusable.

When i see individuals who admit to playing the Jp version of the game, then push for Jp voicework in the localized version, i perceive that people are trying to push crap on me i don't want or need in my American version of the game.

When it comes to localized games, sub should take a back seat, period. There is no screwing over on that, it's just plain common sense. Sub fans should be taking a back seat to the dub, with no arguing. Missing sub means zero to me.

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This is what Ajikage would have said:

Well, that was incredibly confusing. Let’s make some sense out of this mess!

For clarification:
-Sub: Japanese voiceover with English text/subtitles
-Dub: English voiceover, with or without English text/subtitles

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Uiru wrote:

 I thought you had left, and I was much happier two minutes ago.

 "Sub fans should be taking a back seat to the dub, with no arguing."

 You're absolutely right. You know what convinced me? Your flawless argument supporting this statement. You know, the one that doesn't exist.

 You are either trolling, or are completely and totally ignorant. (Neither is a good option.) You have an opinion and a preference, and that's great. Other people have different opinions and preferences, and they are just as valid as yours. If you're not willing to get that through your incredibly thick skull, prepare to cry moar about your increasingly negative karma.
 ~Uiru

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Hah! Bring it on! Let's see if you're as good at dropping karma as I am at boosting it! Heh heh!

And other than that… Dang, kid! Do you even think before you talk? You just pile on insults like your word is law.

You know what I think?
Cheese is disgusting.
“Holy cow! Ajikage is trolling/ignorant for stating his preferences!”

Know what? I am ignorant; there are a ton of things I don’t know, but at least I put effort into attempting to understand. Did you even attempt to think of the advantages and disadvantages of dubs/subs for a business trying to sell a product in a specific region? This isn’t about an individual’s preferences! This is about the preferences of the majority, and what is projected to be the most successful for the company!

Daverost gave this argument:
 

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Daverost wrote:

At the risk of making it worse, he's right. All localization efforts should be just that: Localization. By definition, that means making any and all transitions from one language and culture to another, including, but not limited to: Text, voices, and cultural references that would be lost on the new target audience.

Sub fans seem to think they're entitled to the original track when they're really only entitled to whatever the company puts out. If the company is a good localization company, it will put forth a strong effort to make a complete conversion that mirrors the experience that the original players had in a language they're familiar with on all fronts. If they're a REALLY good company (NISA being one of the few), they'll supplement that with the original track when and where available to appease the customers that want the "authentic" (the term's definition is hazy and up for debate here) experience.

Does that provide enough of a point for you?

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That’s pretty well put, Dave. I approve. It’s just lacking that extra pizzazz. Fear not—I’ll hook you up in a bit.


Ah! What’s this? A naysayer! Let’s listen to his words and try to understand his view.

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Uiru wrote:

I propose that he is -not- right, as dubs being superior to subs (as well as subs being superior to dubs) are equally moronic statements based wholly on a person's opinion, and trying to force that opinion on others is shortsighted. And moronic.

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Okay, this is back to the topic of whether Japanese voiceovers with English text/subtitles is better,
or
English voiceovers, with or without text/subtitles is better.

Uiru states that neither is superior, and by his manner of speech, you can tell he is trying to push that opinion onto you; although it is apparently “shortsighted” and “moronic” to force an opinion leaning to either side. Doesn’t that just strike you as being a bit funny?

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Uiru wrote:

 I also don't get the idea of "fully dubbed" games being some kind of rarity.

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Seriously? Where have you been?
Or by “rarity,” do you mean treasure?

It’s not like I can just pull some fancy statistics from some survey. But do I really need to? It’s all about quality. High-quality games are the treasures of a gamer! Fully dubbed games are rare. You don’t come upon something that reads every non-menu line to you often. This jumps a game’s ratings just due to this fact, and improves sales. Of course, if the dub is terrible, it may do more harm than good.

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Uiru wrote:

If FFXIII has a Japanese track, it will be the first FF to do so.

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I don’t know about the FF series in relation to space limitations, but let’s keep in mind there’s only so much you can cram on a disc/cartridge.

Is it better to go with Japanese voiceovers with subtitles, or English voiceovers? Obviously it is the one that is projected to bring in the most money.

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Uiru wrote:

Prinny was completely in English, as I recall. All Disgaeae have full English (is D2PSP even gonna have the sub track?) as well as most of the other 'core' NIS releases, if not all.

 As for the Ar tonelico 2 and Mana Khemia examples, those were A) horrendous accidents and B) examples of non-core NIS titles not getting the treatment they deserved. (Listen, I love me some NIS but I know full well that if Laharl isn't gonna be in it, I should stay far, far away from it.) It's a fairly simple thing to support the titles that appeal to you, and to avoid the ones that do not. Most NIS games have both languages in full. This is pretty awesome!

 And, as a sub-leaner, I am occasionally impressed with the quality of the dubs put out by this, and only this, company. I didn't even check to see if Grim Grimoire had a sub track until I had finished it (it did! Maybe next time!) and I only put Disgaea 3 on Japanese long enough to find out that I preferred Sapphire's English voice, ~150 hours into the game. So, you guys' whining is kind of like getting beaten by your father for bringing home a 98. Pick ANY OTHER COMPANY and see what kind of language choices you wind up with.

 I know that I can play Dissidia (Dub only) and am looking forward to playing Muramasa (Sub only) without performing any of the following actions:
 1) Crying
 2) Slitting my wrists
 3) AMERICA **** YEAHing all over message boards nobody reads

 Try it sometime, everyone! It's awesome. You get to play more games this way.
 ~Uiru

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I’m assuming that last part meant something along the lines of stop being so picky about what you play, and just have fun.

Now then, it’s about time to wrap this up!

Okay, earlier I was thinking, “Man, Uiru is such a moron!” But I took the time to try to understand where he was coming from. Thing is, he’s not wrong about everything, but he’s not right about all of it, either.

I must say, the whole “take the time to disregard dub/sub to look for something deeper” idea is brilliant. True, the language of the voice work is not the heart and soul of the game. (Heck, the game might not even have voice work.) Take Riviera for example. I mentioned it in an earlier post. It has both a full English track, and a full Japanese track. But the gameplay just plain sucks in my opinion, so it is not a game I can recommend.

But that’s a bit off track.

What we are talking about here is an idea.
A game was dubbed. It was dubbed in Japanese. Now it’s going to be released in a country that speaks a different language. There’s only enough space for one voice track. Now what’s it going to be? Sub? Or dub?

Sub path:
-Majority upset that the Japanese audience was treated better than them vocally
-Minority that understand the Japanese language glad that culture-specific things in voiceovers remain intact, possibly glad to hear the original voice work
-Minority that doesn’t understand Japanese glad to just hear the original voice work (subtitles aren’t reliable for explaining things only understandable in the context of the Japanese culture)

Dub path:
-Majority is pleased to hear understandable voice work, increased loyalty toward the publisher for not vocally cheating them as other publishers have done
-Minority disappointed to lose things specific to the context of the Japanese culture, possibly upset to lose original voice work

That’s what it comes down to. You can swap in a different language for Japanese, if you want. It’s still the same thing. I just went with that because Japan is mainly where these games are coming from.

I believe it is financially beneficial to create a game in a dub that matches a country’s spoken language, and then, if space limitations allow it, to retain the original dubbing (and add subtitles) to appeal to the minority that desires such, in order to maintain their loyalty. This is mostly going to be dependent on if the publisher’s budget allows for it, and whether that game is or isn’t worth doing voice work on. But if it isn’t, then why bring it over anyway?

Again, I can’t give you some survey or study, but that doesn’t mean I can’t say that the dub route favored by the majority is by far the better choice considering the interests of the localization company.

Majority dominates. Maybe you wanted McCain, but Obama got elected.

Think it over.

Now let’s make like Confucius and say something friggin’ awesome.

A truly wise man comprehends his own ignorance, and knows he is a fool, yet strives to attain a higher intelligence. A truly foolish man believes he is wise and well-learned, and gives no room for thought.

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