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losgigantes
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 Uh oh... (maybe we'll keep the vets after all)
A STARTLING CONTENTION
GM: Giants - who fall to Astros - have shot in '08
Henry Schulman, Chronicle Staff Writer
Thursday, May 15, 2008
(05-14) 22:42 PDT -- Like most baseball folk, general manager Brian Sabean likes to assess his team once it completes one quarter of its schedule. The Giants did so with a 6-3 loss to Houston on Wednesday night, and strange as it might sound, Sabean sees a San Francisco team that can contend.
Not in two seasons, not next season, but in 2008.
"As long as we've got a chance to stay in and around third place, why not?" Sabean said as he stood along the dugout rail and watched his players take batting practice. "Why wouldn't you want to think that way? These guys think that way.
"Between what people thought of us and how we're actually performing, I think these guys have a lot to be proud of."
The thought of the Giants competing in 2008 is startling. Some would call it delusional. After all, as Sabean spoke before Tuesday night's victory against Houston, the Giants were 16-23 and on pace to lose 95 games. They are so unsettled, manager Bruce Bochy has used 40 lineups in 41 games.
The Giants are 6-13 on the road. They are second to last in the league in runs scored. A pitcher, Matt Cain, is three homers away from the team lead. They are relying heavily on untested players.
And yet, they are not buried in the standings, despite falling to 17-24 Wednesday when the Astros exploited relievers Jack Taschner and Billy Sadler for three runs in the seventh and eighth innings to break a 3-3 tie.
When Sabean thinks about the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals, who went 83-79 in the regular season and won the World Series, or last year's Colorado Rockies, who rode one long hot streak to a National League pennant, he looks at his transitional team and thinks, why not us?
"I think we've come a long way," Sabean said. "When you consider some of our challenges in spring training and some of the question marks, we've got to be considered one of the most improved teams in baseball. With the exception of two series, the Milwaukee series and Pittsburgh series, we've held our own no matter who've we've played.
"You're seven games under .500. That's where you don't want to be, but I really feel good about the energy around the club and I feel good about some of our choices. We've now got a solution at first base. We've got a solution at third. We've gotten Omar (Vizquel) back. Freddie Lewis has come into his own and (Emmanuel) Burriss has been a real factor lately.
"I don't think we're going to lose as many games as we did last year. If anything, we're going to be a second-half team."
With that in mind, Sabean said he does not contemplate moving his most marketable experienced players before the trade deadline, as many rebuilding teams do. Catcher Bengie Molina and outfielder Randy Winn, both signed through 2009, might yield the most in return. But as of now, Sabean plans to keep them.
"Both of those guys are unique," he said. "On any team, whether you're in transition or you're a veteran team, you want a veteran catcher. You want somebody like Molina who has an upside with the bat. In Randy's case it's the same thing, somebody who is so versatile, a switch-hitter who can play all three outfield positions. Their relative value is going to be consistent no matter what year it is or who you have around them."
The Giants did some things well over the first 40 games. Even with Barry Zito's struggles and Kevin Correia's injury, the starters kept the team in practically every game. Wednesday night aside, the bullpen was solid. Clearly, if the Giants want to shock the world and compete this year, their rise will be pitcher-driven.
The offense has been weak. New third baseman Jose Castillo is not an upgrade over Pedro Feliz (although Castillo comes far cheaper). Between Ray Durham's struggles and Eugenio Velez's growing pains, second base has been a black hole. Vizquel missed the first 36 games with a knee injury and Aaron Rowand was hampered for a month by a busted rib.
On the other hand, Lewis and John Bowker have been pleasant surprises.
The Giants are not embarrassing themselves at the plate, as critics predicted, although clutch hitting has been a problem. On Wednesday night, they were 1-for-12 with runners in scoring position, which cost Pat Misch a shot at his first big-league win. Misch left a 3-3 game after six innings, no walks and six strikeouts.
In summary, Sabean said, "I think we can throw a combination of people out there who can play."
The Giants have been resilient. When the Astros scored three first-inning runs Misch, two on a Lance Berkman homer, they bounced back with three runs to tie the game in the second. Rowand hit his fifth homer after a Molina single. Bowker scored the third run on Misch's safety squeeze and pitcher Brian Moehler's wide throw home.
The game remained tied until Taschner walked .125-hitting Jose Cruz Jr. to start the seventh and Miguel Tejada got him home on a two-out single against Sadler. Brad Ausmus iced things with his first homer of the year, against Sadler, with a man aboard in the eighth.
=====================================
...there goes my dream of selling off the vets before the deadline
---
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." - GEORGE CARLIN
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5/15/2008, 8:12 am
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barrance
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…
There's no way that Sabean is actually delusional enough to believe this team will contend. If by "contend", he means, "not finish in last place", then maybe, but there is no way this team is going to be anywhere close to the postseason.
That said, he obviously can't come out and say that we'll be dumping all our valuable vets at the trade deadline because that will just put us in a bad bargaining position. I'm hoping he's smart enough to use this as a tactic to get the most return for guys like Molina and Winn. I know we'd all like to get rid of Aurilia, Durham, and Roberts, but none of those guys are bringing anyone decent back and the first two are gone after this year anyways. There's some hope that Molina and Winn can bring in pieces that can help.
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5/15/2008, 9:34 am
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VASFfan
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Re: …
quote:
barrance wrote:
There's no way that Sabean is actually delusional enough to believe this team will contend. If by "contend", he means, "not finish in last place", then maybe, but there is no way this team is going to be anywhere close to the postseason.
That said, he obviously can't come out and say that we'll be dumping all our valuable vets at the trade deadline because that will just put us in a bad bargaining position. I'm hoping he's smart enough to use this as a tactic to get the most return for guys like Molina and Winn. I know we'd all like to get rid of Aurilia, Durham, and Roberts, but none of those guys are bringing anyone decent back and the first two are gone after this year anyways. There's some hope that Molina and Winn can bring in pieces that can help.
Thank you for a moment of rationality. Whatever one thinks of Sabean, one should at least acknowledge he's been around long enough to know better than to give up a huge chunk of his leverage by saying "oh yeah, I'm gonna dump Winn and Molina as soon as I can, if I can get anything for them." He clearly wants to maintain or hopefully increase their trade value...which goes in the toilet if he signals this early that he's giving up on the season or that he's going to hold a fire sale. Whether he gets value for Winn or Molina is another matter, but I think his comment is nothing more than a GM doing his job by trying to set a smoke screen.
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5/15/2008, 10:15 am
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Cameron Frye
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Re: …
quote:
VASFfan wrote:
Thank you for a moment of rationality. Whatever one thinks of Sabean, one should at least acknowledge he's been around long enough to know better than to give up a huge chunk of his leverage by saying "oh yeah, I'm gonna dump Winn and Molina as soon as I can, if I can get anything for them." He clearly wants to maintain or hopefully increase their trade value...which goes in the toilet if he signals this early that he's giving up on the season or that he's going to hold a fire sale. Whether he gets value for Winn or Molina is another matter, but I think his comment is nothing more than a GM doing his job by trying to set a smoke screen.
But you also have to realize that Randy Winn has almost NO trade value right now. If an opposing GM were thinking about adding an OF and looked at the Giants' roster, Winn might attract some interest. But if that same GM had read Sabean's comments, he might already realize that our delusional piece of **** GM would hold out for a WHOLE LOT more than Randy Winn is actually worth and then might just abandon any idea of even calling in the first place. It's not like there's only one guy in all of MLB with Randy Winn's skillset. He's a dime a dozen and any GM with half a brain could find another guy just like him who is going to command a lot less in trade.
So the "idea" that Sabean is boosting these guys' trade value is laughable.
Now Benjie Molina actually might fetch a prospect as he's solid behind the plate. But Molina is the only vet the Giants SHOULDN'T trade as he's the one working with the young pitching staff and doing a wonderful job. The backup - Steve Holm - is not exactly the kind of guy that fans should want to see behind the plate 6 days per week.
Editor's statement: Dave Roberts and Rich Aurilia and Ray Durham were not mentioned in the previous post because only the biggest fools on this board believe that the Giants could kand anything more than minor league filler for their services.
--- The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws.
~Rick Wise, 1974
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5/15/2008, 10:23 am
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Cameron Frye
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Re: …
quote:
chefjuan wrote:
quote:
Cameron Frye wrote:
. But Molina is the only vet the Giants SHOULDN'T trade as he's the one working with the young pitching staff and doing a wonderful job. The backup - Steve Holm - is not exactly the kind of guy that fans should want to see behind the plate 6 days per week.
I've never disagreed more, Cam. Molina's pitch calling is boarder line insane with a health dose of lazy mixed in. He falls in love with the kid's fastballs and they pay the price. SEE: Wilson v. Burrell. SEE ALSO: Timmy's attempt at his first career SO last year.
Molina is the last guy the Giants need catching their young arms. Steve Holm has done a much better job mixing pitchers and working off these guys secondary stuff.
Rags, Garner, Molina and Bochy need to go.
Chef - I guess the differences in opinion here rest not with Molina but with Brian Wilson. I don't personally think Wilson is going to be an effective closer for very long. His slider is nothing special (it's fast with very little movement) and his fastball has been proven to be hittable.
The guy lacks control more often than not and I personally gave Benjie the benefit of the doubt with that specific at-bat because Wilson had started the at-bat with 3 consecutive balls. Had he tried to throw a slider, Burrell would have been on base. I don't care that Happy Pete was up next, you don't ever put the winning run on base if you can help it.
So while I agree that Rags, Garner and Botch-y need to go, I cannot blame Molina for the shortcomings of some of his lesser pitchers.
Last edited by Cameron Frye, 5/15/2008, 11:11 am
--- The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws.
~Rick Wise, 1974
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5/15/2008, 11:10 am
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VASFfan
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Re: …
quote:
Cameron Frye wrote:
quote:
VASFfan wrote:
Thank you for a moment of rationality. Whatever one thinks of Sabean, one should at least acknowledge he's been around long enough to know better than to give up a huge chunk of his leverage by saying "oh yeah, I'm gonna dump Winn and Molina as soon as I can, if I can get anything for them." He clearly wants to maintain or hopefully increase their trade value...which goes in the toilet if he signals this early that he's giving up on the season or that he's going to hold a fire sale. Whether he gets value for Winn or Molina is another matter, but I think his comment is nothing more than a GM doing his job by trying to set a smoke screen.
But you also have to realize that Randy Winn has almost NO trade value right now. If an opposing GM were thinking about adding an OF and looked at the Giants' roster, Winn might attract some interest. But if that same GM had read Sabean's comments, he might already realize that our delusional piece of **** GM would hold out for a WHOLE LOT more than Randy Winn is actually worth and then might just abandon any idea of even calling in the first place. It's not like there's only one guy in all of MLB with Randy Winn's skillset. He's a dime a dozen and any GM with half a brain could find another guy just like him who is going to command a lot less in trade.
So the "idea" that Sabean is boosting these guys' trade value is laughable.
Cam, with all due respect, you're not a GM, so pardon me if I think it's preposterous of you to speak for all major league GM's. What you do have is a boiling contempt for Sabean which might make it more difficult to see anything positive in his actions. But anyway, let's be honest...you have NO idea what value major league GM's place upon Winn. Nor do I, for that matter. But, I DO think that it is conceivable that a veteran, switch-hitting, versatile OF capable of hitting in the .275 to .300 range might have some significant value. (BTW, I will stipulate that 'versatile' may reasonably be interpreted to mean 'does not play any of the 3 OF positions particularly well but can at least play them without making someone recoil in horror.') By significant value, I don't mean any nonsense like Winn being able to fetch us a top of the rotation starter or a couple of immediate starting position players. But, maybe he can get us 1 or 2 solid prospects who can be good players for us in the future. Since we're looking to the future and Winn's not part of that future, if he can instead serve to get us 1 or 2 good prospects, I'd consider that a reasonable deal.
In any event, neither you nor I know anything of the sort about Sabean 'holding out for a WHOLE LOT more than Randy Winn is actually worth', just like we don't know that any GM's would be put off by what he said. Which, as I've suggested, I think is nothing more than the typical GM posturing you see in EVERY sport, i.e., lying though his teeth in the hopes that it makes his cards harder to read and that MAYBE someone will eventually up their bid (which may or may not happen) but that at least he's not just folding before the game has even really begun (by saying, hey guys, come rape me because we suck and I want to dump Winn and Molina so badly that I'll take ANYTHING for them). For myself, I think other experienced GM's, far from being angered or offended, are more likely to simply read his comments and roll their eyes or suppress a giggle. I don't think Sabean's gambit was badly played, per se...but I think it is likely that others will see it for the bluff it was and simply make the same offers (if ANY) they would have originally made. Maybe they'll take away from it that he's signalling he won't allow them to rob him blind, and so it will keep them from dropping their bids. Maybe.
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5/15/2008, 11:44 am
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