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Nut Box
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The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
The other week I posted this on DrumForum.org to correct what I see as mis-information that keeps on being passed around. This is where I am up to on the sequence of events in the making of English Rogers.
Last week in a thread entitled “How to REALLY sell drums”, somebody said this……….... ”One way around this was to import American parts and actually build the drums in England (English Rogers were done that way)”.
Maybe you guys could help me with this. We have probably all read this view in one book or another, and I have heard this same opinion expressed before by others. I don’t see any evidence for it at this end (in the UK), and, cards on the table, I think it is a myth, at least in the way implied. I do not believe that there was large scale shipping of parts to the UK for Ajax to make these drums. Does anyone here know different?
This is a page from the first English Rogers catalogue. The price list is dated August 1961. The only items on this kit that I can see may have come from the US are the snare strainer and butt plate.
The shells were made by Ajax.
The bread and butter lugs were made by Ajax (distance between screw-hole centres are different to the US ones).
Ajax made their own triple flange, tall hoops (by some accounts slightly different in profile to the US ones, and Ajax continued to use these for their Nu Sound kits after they gave up with Rogers).
Ajax made swivo fittings - swivo collet plates all say “SWIV-O-MATIC” not “ROGERS” and collet nose/wing assemblies say “Made in England” (early ones are blank but machined, not cast). The books also usually tell you how the English swivos aren’t compatible with the US ones.
The stands and pedals (and the floor tom legs) are all Ajax. So, what’s left? Only the strainer and butt plate, which say “Made in the USA”, so maybe they were, and maybe they weren’t.
So, where did this idea of lots of parts being shipped over come from?
Another version of this story you come across is that parts were shipped over in the beginning, to get Ajax “started” so to speak. This idea does not appear to stand up to scrutiny either. This would increase costs and would generally seem to be a poor business move.
In all, I have owned 5 English Rogers kits. At the moment I have two. The first is 1962 and the second is earlier than that. Dates with these kits are tricky and I don’t want to bore you with the details but my earlier kit has several of what might be called “transitional” features (particularly with the construction of the shells and bearing edges), by which I mean Ajax drums evolving into English Rogers. So, I believe that it is a very early kit. Neither of these kits have any American parts on them.
From 1963 things changed slightly. With the second catalogue it was possible to have the choice of Ajax or Rogers USA stands. Also the English COB Dyna was introduced which used a snare frame which was shipped over. The shell and other parts on the drum though are English. The knobby fittings became available at about this time and they do say “Rogers” as in the US, so possibly these were shipped (I haven’t had an opportunity to compare these with the American product yet).
What I do see evidence for, is Ajax, having produced lugs, hoops and Swivo fittings, start to produce English Rogers, initially using their own stands, pedals and floor tom legs, and their own brass shell snare, and as they get into the swing of things, the COB Dyna, Swivo stands and pedals (from the US), and knobby fittings (possibly from the US) gradually become available.
If anyone has any hard info. To the contrary I’d appreciate them sharing.
Thanks.
Alan
The interesting thing for me was that nobody put up an argument.
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"You have to become the change you want to see in the World". - Mahatma Gandhi.
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6/18/2008, 2:24 am
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Swivomatic
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Guys
Been in touch with Eddie Ryan and I am hoping to speak to him on the 'phone in the next few days. Hopefully I will learn a lot from the horses mouth!
Unfortunately I have not had the time to set up my kit to take detailed digi photo's through gigs and rehearsal schedules but will do so ASAP.
As I am new to these forums .......can you guys advise how I load an image............I have looked at "insert image" but it is confusing to a computer illiterate such as me!
Thanks
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6/27/2008, 2:50 am
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musicbybj
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
First off you have to use a photo sharing service (most members here use Photobucket, Free service www.photobucket.com) Using Photobucket follow their directions on uploading your photos. When you have uploaded the photos to Photobucket you will see four options underneath the photos, choose the last option and copy that one. Then open a post here at the ROF and paste and your picture will appear as if by magic. Good luck!
Jack
Last edited by musicbybj, 6/27/2008, 11:26 am
--- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another" Buddha
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6/27/2008, 11:25 am
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Nut Box
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hey Martin, good work getting in touch with Eddie Ryan. If you haven't got enough questions of your own I'll work up a list.
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"You have to become the change you want to see in the World". - Mahatma Gandhi.
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6/27/2008, 12:25 pm
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Dan Coluccio
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
The best source of information is looking at drums themselves, and you have done that.
I believe you are probably right, and since you have the hands-on experience that most of us don't have with the English goods, you will probably become one of the 'go-to' guys on English Rogers.
I've only seen a few English Rogers kits in person, and never really examined them that closely. I do remember the 'Swiv-o-Matic' legend on the parts instead of the Rogers brand; it never really occurred to me that they were different in any other way: I just figured that they had that slight difference to distinguish them from their cousins, and then were shipped to the U.K. But they were most likely made there, for the reasons you stated.
And if the lugs had different screw-centers, that is probably owing to a metric spec instead of a USA spec.
The kits that I saw were at several drumshows over the years, and were almost always ignored by most of the vintage guys as not being the 'real thing'. That always made me feel a little bad...
Last edited by Dan Coluccio, 6/27/2008, 1:10 pm
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Regards,
Dan C.
"All Rogers, all the time."
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6/27/2008, 1:09 pm
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Nut Box
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Dan, I think you are right when you say that the drums themselves are the best source of information. I only got interested in drums again about 15 months ago after a lay off off 25years. I initially expected that eventually I would find a source of information for English Rogers but there doesn't seem to be anyone around, on the net at least, that knows much about them. We are left scrutinising the drums to try and work out what went on.
Like you say these drums are not appreciated in their own right but as some historical oddity. However you do come across comments on various places on the net were people have ended up with an English Rogers, perhaps thinking they were buying the US product, and they say how great this or that drum sounded. But they would still rather have the US product. One of the US guys here has an English COB Dyna and prefers it to his US one (maybe I shouldn't say that too loud in case too many others want one). English Rogers are what I had back in the seventies and like so many others I have always regretted selling my beloved drums. It is great to have the opportunity to get some of them back.
Initially I was a little self conscious and hesitant here in case the guys might think that English Rogers didn't belong here but I have been shown nothing but interest and encouragement.
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"You have to become the change you want to see in the World". - Mahatma Gandhi.
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6/27/2008, 3:28 pm
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Rogersoholic
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Nut box has been our lil english version of Rogers and we are greatful for all the efforts he puts in. Seems hes been doing his homework. As far as the drums I know during these earlier years Rogers had other companies making hardware, heads, and accessories. Remo, Camco, I think pro and giant stands were based on W&A's. They even had other drums offered. Like Champion. Even the most of the stuff offered in the back of US cataloges {at that time} were made by someone else. So why wouldnt the do this with the drums in the UK. The strainer was unique to Rogers snares. Patents laws dont hold up well in some countries. Laws are different depending on which contry you sell items in. You've obviously made some discoveries on your own, worthy of time well spent. I wish I some input to help.
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6/27/2008, 8:19 pm
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Nut Box
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
I am sure you are right Rogerso', Ajax must have had their suppliers just like Rogers did. The Ajax damper for instance looks just the same as that found on many Ludwig snare drums - so were did that come from?
Swivomatic, if you are listening, here are a few questions that I would put to Eddie if I had the chance (but of course you will have your own priorities).
1. Who’s idea was the Rogers/Ajax deal? Did Rogers approach Ajax or Ajax approach Rogers?
2. It looks to me as if in the beginning (the first year), Ajax were not entirely ready to put out English Rogers, so changes took place as they went. Did Eddie get any sense of this?
3. With regard to the post we are on at the moment and the shipping of parts. Which parts were made in the US and which were shipped over? Did Ajax make the “Rogers” parts that were produced in the UK or was that part of that production put out to subcontractors?
4. How did the design of the English chromed script logo come about? Why the underscore? (Looks to me that it might just be there to strengthen the casting).
5. Why are some shells birch and others beech? Many of the snare drums appear to be beech. Was there a reason for this?
6. SERIAL NUMBERS
I have had a couple of kits with almost sequential serial numbers stamped on the inside of the shell. I would conclude that this would mean that the serial number was added as drums were assembled and grouped into kits. Could Eddie confirm this?
Also does he know anything about how the serial numbers were assigned. It is unlikely that any records would be kept. I have an image in my mind of a large ink stamp which automatically turned to the next number when it was used (the numbers do seem to be reliable in terms of them at least being sequential). Is this anywhere near the truth?
Did drums from Ajax's other ranges (Edgware etc.) come of the same production line and would the same stamp have been used?
Many of these questions are maybe asking a bit much but you never know.
Have fun.
Alan
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"You have to become the change you want to see in the World". - Mahatma Gandhi.
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6/28/2008, 3:37 am
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Swivomatic
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Thanks Jack
Hopefully can post pics before too long!
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6/28/2008, 4:03 am
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tommykat1
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Nutbox and Swivo: we are scrutinizng this thread with bated breath. You two are the English Rogers archaeologists. Thank you for your diligent efforts.
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6/28/2008, 9:51 pm
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