SHJIHM :: Catholic Discussions :: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded? ~ Runboard
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing." -Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
OOT
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded? History shows that what are now the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were united under the Bishop of Rome for the first 8 or 9 centuries of Christianity.
The history you are so agnostic about is not based only on the Bible. It is based on the writings of the Early Church Fathers, pagans like Tacitus, and other writers from the early centuries of the Church. That Church has enemies who have become smarter and more sophisticated through the centuries. They obfuscate. They cast doubt. They constantly replace one interpretation with another, but always avoid like the Plague the traditional interpretation that comes to us directly from the Church Fathers.
The gospel of Judas makes headlines, but nobody mentions that maybe we might want to read the letters of Pope St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, or St. Irenaeus of Lyons first to get the other side of the story. Because if we do that we just might conclude that the gospel of Judas is ahistorical, Gnostic blather that was written too late and by the wrong people to give us any useful information on what the followers of Jesus were actually taught by Him. Not to mention that it might also squash sales of books based on it.
The history of the early Church makes one thing very clear: the early Christians viewed their faith as having been passed down - orally and through Scripture - directly to them from the Apostles through the bishops of the Catholic Church.
Christianity is an historical religion. Jesus is a real person who lived and walked among us. It HAS to be possible to know things as historical fact, or we lose our past. We lose those who handed the faith down to us from Jesus Himself and, ultimately, we end up losing Jesus.
Have you read any of the Church Fathers, Lauchlin?
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded? `Start hearing what I say as opposed to what you want to hear.
By what you say then either the Catholic or Orthodox church could be 'the one'. Again, no contest.
I never said that history was based on the Bible. In fact, I kind of stated that the Bible was part of the historical record. I am simply stating that OVER TIME these things, any records, get degraded and change, as well as having other books found without any really good way to prove there authenticity.
It is possible to READ about the past, and to believe that as true, but I cannot bring myself to believe that anymore. Especially with the fact that I have to trust that every person that these books ever passed through had the best of intentions.
I would also have to believe that the Church itself was above the idea of hiding knowledge (vatican archives are a perfect example) that could shed a lot of important light on the Christian Faith. I really can't believe that, so I am left knowing that something happened, with all probability Christ DID live, but not much is steady beyond that.
I have faith that he was the Messiah, but I don't have any delusions of proving that through historical record.
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?
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Lauchlin wrote:
And with that repetition I am done.
Sorry to hear.
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Again you come at me with this same rhetoric.
I came at you with Scripture. You have yet to show me how the mustard seed is a good analogy of the foundation Christ built His Church upon. I said that the situation is better compared to the wise builder. (Matt. 7. 24, 25)
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Does it hurt, especially in this case, to explore both sides of what it could be, and simply show that whatever way it is translated it is an effective message?
Yes it does. One aspect diminishes Peter's role.
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How can you say that speaking of the mustard seed is not a good example?
As I have already told you. Peter's admission before Christ did not come from a meek man of faith. The admission came from one who was rock steady in his faith. Thus, Jesus would have had to build His Church upon SOLID foundation for the gates of hell never to prevail against her. The mustard seed anology just does not work.
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The fact of the matter is, I am trying to create peace and connection where you, as well as many in this forum, push for division.
???? You are challenging Catholic belief. And by all means, you may do so. Do not be upset when Catholics come to the defense of their faith. I can not and will not make illogical connections contrary to Gods Word. Of which I believe you do not place much faith in. If we can not agree on the validity of God's Word, there truly is no common ground to discuss from.
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I was trying to make a point, and you turned it into childishness.
I turned this debate childish? I countered your point with Scripture. I pointed out how your pebble belief can not work in light of Gods Word. I have remained on topic thru out. How did I become childish?
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But I digress. Convince a fool against his will, he will have his own opinions still.
Did you not just accuse me of being childish?!?
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It is my fault for trying to add a bit of strength to something.
No one is at fault Lauchlin. Please understand that you are more than welcome here. If you challenge Catholic belief, you will get Catholic responses.
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Highly disappointed,
Lauchlin
Sorry to hear that.
Last edited by SHJIHM, Aug/29/2006, 1:22 pm
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded? To Tom,
I missed the question. I am not sure what you mean about reading the fathers... maybe that sounds a trifle ignorant, but still... regardless, I am not sure what that has to do with what we were talking about.
To SHJIHM
You came at me with the scripture that you had just spouted, which speaks to me as saying that either the large rock or the tiny pebble, an important message is to be had. In my personal opinion, I don't think that Christ would be trying to stroke his ego. The point here is, you see the benefits of one side, not both. I see the benefits of both, and see it clearly as a vote of faith in Peter's direction, not a detriment to his importance.
All in all, I guess it is my own fault for not elaborating, but to me the concept was plain, and as a result, your repetition of the same scripture was irritating.
Using the mustard seed states the adversity that is against the Church that is to come, but that the inner strength of Peter's faith, even though he is seemingly small in face of the massed opposition, is more than enough to perservere. The whole thing, to me, is a warning to Peter, but also a message of hope, that Christ's will would be done through him.
Yes, it is good to look at Peter's important role in the founding of the church, particularly with catholocism, but that is another debate. Yes, calling him a huge rock, when taken in context of building a house on top of it, would be a major vote of confidence.
However, for me, considering that I do not see the physical Church as such an important thing (I focus more on the communion of faithful people), tieing Peter into the idea of the mustard seed, states to me, that Christ had faith that that man would move mountains, even though he began as a small part of the whole.
Again, I see both as valid, but given my feelings as described above, I see the mustard seed as a much better view on it. I do not belittle your outlook on how it is important to make Peter seem big, I merely cannot agree with it, especially considering Christ's words reference the little mustard seed. For these reasons I do not agree that it diminishes Peter's role at all.
As for things getting childish, that was another irksome point, my misunderstanding and my apologies, spawned from your repetition.
As a result, I also apologize for the ill timed fool comment. Something my mother always said when she was fuming, generally when people clung too fastidiously to one side of an idea, when both sides were beneficial.
The point being, everyone with an opinion thinks that those who don't go along with it are fools, thus, if you actually convince someone else, they will likely maintain their original stance, regardless.
Hot topic, lol.
Thanks for understanding, and PLEASE do not take this back to the matter of the actual translation. I know that the original Aramaic was supposed to mean large rock, according to your sources. That is above and beyond the point I was trying to display, as I was simply stating that both COULD be very effective.
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded? From the way you answered my question, Im not sure if you know who I am talking about. I will briefly explain if you dont - my apologies if you do.
We have writings from early Christians, many of whom were Catholic bishops and martyrs. The writings did not get included in the NT, but were revered by early Christians anyway.
One of the earliest of these writings is the Didache, which is a handbook for converting people to Christianity, probably written near the end of the 1st century. There are letters from St. Clement of Rome - the Pope at the time - that were written about 95 AD and while the Apostle St. John was still alive and living in Ephesus.
Another bishop and martyr is St. Ignatius of Antioch who was the 3rd bishop of Antioch after St. Evodius and St. Peter. He was also a disciple of the Apostle St. John and is the first person to refer to the Church Jesus founded as the Catholic Church.
The Church Fathers are very relevant to what we are talking about, because they make it crystal clear that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded.
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?
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Using the mustard seed states the adversity that is against the Church that is to come, but that the inner strength of Peter's faith, even though he is seemingly small in face of the massed opposition, is more than enough to perservere. The whole thing, to me, is a warning to Peter, but also a message of hope, that Christ's will would be done through him.
Perhaps I am not reading enough into what you are trying to say. With that said, I can not find any reason to disagree with this assessment. I thought you were debating fom the standpoint that the Church was not built upon Peter when referencing the Protestant argument of the Greek/Aramaic word for Peter that they claim means pebble. In that light, I apologize for overlooking the real point you were trying to make. The above point in no way diminishes Peter's role.
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tieing Peter into the idea of the mustard seed, states to me, that Christ had faith that that man would move mountains, even though he began as a small part of the whole.
Ahh....agreed. Now apply this thought with Peter being the Rock, Jesus built His Church upon. Although man was and reamins fallible, the Church needed to built upon solid foundation. Although small in light of the whole, Peter would move mountains.
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I do not belittle your outlook on how it is important to make Peter seem big,
Lauchlin, it has nothing to do at all with making Peter look big. It has all to do with the foundation of the Church, and the solid ground she was buult upon. Sort of like laying the foundation of your childs faith. If YOU are not the foundation, what should become of your childs faith?
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As for things getting childish, that was another irksome point, my misunderstanding and my apologies, spawned from your repetition. As a result, I also apologize for the ill timed fool comment.
No apologies are necessary Lauchlin. You are as passionate of your beliefs as I am about mine. Our thoughts are often lost in transaltion on message boards, and discussions can get heated. Please NEVER doubt that you are not welcome here, even though you may not agree with Catholic belief. In turn I apologize if I seemed at times overbearing.
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded? Tony:
I saw Lauchlin's approach as one that was intended to shed some new light on our understanding of what Jesus said to St. Peter, not as a way to undermine our Catholic understanding of it.
It was just unfortunate that some buzz-words were used that we've all seen as part of the argument that tries to avoid the Catholic view of St. Matthew 16:18.
Also, here is the complete Didache instead of just a discussion of it that I mistakenly posted earlier.
Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?
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I saw Lauchlin's approach as one that was intended to shed some new light on our understanding of what Jesus said to St. Peter, not as a way to undermine our Catholic understanding of it.
Yes, and unfortunately I did not see it this way until now. My fault entirely. I am so geared towards defending our faith, that I am sometimes blinded by the same apologetics. I am gald to see that you recognized lauchlins's thoughts for what they were. I need to take a step back and see the forest.
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
