SHJIHM :: Catholic Discussions :: Misconceptions of Catholocism ~ Runboard
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing." -Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
OOT
Misconceptions of Catholocism After certain problems have been had in stating Catholic Dogma, it was suggested that this would be a good place to start...
The problem is, I do not know which of the things I know is true and which is false...
So I will start here. From the perspective of a Catholic, what is the idea of praying to saints? As well, it might be beneficial to tie in praying to Mary, mother of Jesus, into this discussion.
To many outsiders, it seems that Catholics pray to these figures, which some would mistake as idolatry. I would argue that it is still seeking Christ, so it isn't idolatry.
It still remains, though, why are these figures objects of prayer, instead of simply being revered?
To many outsiders, it seems that Catholics pray to these figures, which some would mistake as idolatry. I would argue that it is still seeking Christ, so it isn't idolatry.
First and formost Lauchlin, you understand better than most non-Catholics I have spoken to. You are quite right to say that there is no idolatry taking place when a Catholic approaches a Saint or the Mother of our Lord. It is important to understand that we are not praying to them. We are asking them to pray for us and to take our prayers to God. Jesus is the onl mediator between God and man, and therefore, our prayers, regardless of whom we are asking for intercession, must still be brought to the Lord.
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It still remains, though, why are these figures objects of prayer, instead of simply being revered
The practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity. And it does not involve praying to any individual in the way we approach God. Prayer, in it's simplest form is to ask for help. And that is what we are doing when we pray to say the Mother of our Lord. The same way in which we would ask anyone of our friends or family to pray for us. We are simply turning to our family in Heaven for help. I often wonder why folks say why not pray directly to Jesus? In that sense, why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do.
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism So, in essence, each Saint is noted for strength in a given situation, I am guessing, so there are different Saints for different things. Expanding this, the Saints become an ethereal prayer group?
Interesting thought... How about the sacrament of confession? Many people would say that stating things you have done to a priest is actually a way for the clergy to 'keep an eye' on people, and control them. As well, and I don't know if this is a misconception, but many see it as getting the priest to forgive their sins.
In this sense, it seems odd, when we are told to pray to Christ, and ask for his forgiveness. It almost feels like, in the beginning, Peter took the idea of him being the stone the Church was built on as a message stating that he was an extension of the hand of Christ.
As I mentioned in another thread, many view the problems with priests in the Catholic church to stem from such things. People have ever been encouraged to do as the Priest says, and never question the word of the Priest or Clergy member, in the past.
LauchlinSo, in essence, each Saint is noted for strength in a given situation, I am guessing, so there are different Saints for different things. Expanding this, the Saints become an ethereal prayer group?
Interesting thought indeed. And a very good one at that.
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How about the sacrament of confession? Many people would say that stating things you have done to a priest is actually a way for the clergy to 'keep an eye' on people, and control them.
Perhaps this might be true if we sought a man to confess our sins to.
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As well, and I don't know if this is a misconception, but many see it as getting the priest to forgive their sins.
Only God can forgive sins my friend. Yet God gave the authority to forgive sins in His name to fallible man, This is also a reason God took human form. To show that he had authority as a man to forgive sins, and then pass that authority to His disciples. We need to refer to Christ’s words to his apostles (John 20:2l–22), "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven," and the significance of his having breathed upon them as he spoke. How can the apostles announce that some sins are to be forgiven and some "retained" if they do not know what people’s sins are? How would forgiveness work if no sins were mentioned?
The Catholic Church takes the biblical teaching that the apostle is one who is "sent out" by God and through whom God speaks (2 Cor. 5:20) with the message, "Be reconciled to God." The words that are used by the Church in absolution are centered in Scripture, which speaks of Christ "reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor. 5:18). In the epistle of James we are told "confess your faults to one another"
It is important to understand that it is not a man we seek when we enter the confessional, but the God of Mercy. For it is Truly God who absolves us, and not merely a man. We are forgiven in the NAME of Christ, and not on the authority of man.
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism In one instance, you are stating that God gave man the authority to forgive sins, through his disciples. That his disciples had that authority. The problem arises with the belief that this was not meant to be passed from the Disciples to the clergy of the growing church. In the other instance, you are stating that men cannot forgive sins, and that it is Christ.
Christ did indeed state that they had that authority, but did he say that that authority was transferable? Is the sacrament of confession a requirement for the faithful of Catholocism to be forgiven, or is it an acceptable process to appeal to Christ, through prayer, for forgiveness? Is the intermediary required?
In one instance, you are stating that God gave man the authority to forgive sins, through his disciples. In the other instance, you are stating that men cannot forgive sins, and that it is Christ.
Men can not forgive sins of their own authority. That was my point. When we are forgiven in the sacrament of confession, we are forgiven in the NAME of Christ....I absolve you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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The problem arises with the belief that this was not meant to be passed from the Disciples to the clergy of the growing church.
For this to be true, you must show me in Scripture where that authority ended. Jesus charged the Apostles to continue His mission.
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Christ did indeed state that they had that authority, but did he say that that authority was transferable?
In essenance yes. We must again refer to the Words of Christ....Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
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Is the sacrament of confession a requirement for the faithful of Catholocism to be forgiven, or is it an acceptable process to appeal to Christ, through prayer, for forgiveness?
Confession is necessary for any good Catholic to be reconciled with God. And one must do so in the fashion God instituted.
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Is the intermediary required?
Ahhh my friend. There is no intermediary we seek. For it is the God of mercy we seek in confession. Not a man. I do not go to a priest for forgiveness....I go to my God. The priest is simply Gods earthly representative.
Last edited by SHJIHM, Sep/29/2006, 10:39 am
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
… Also Lauchlin, it is important for us to consider these Words of God....
2 Cor. 5:18
But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ;and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
The ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.
Last edited by SHJIHM, Sep/29/2006, 10:57 am
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
A focused figure there to respond from his best judgment, based on his understanding of God's word...
I guess I simply do not see how your words state that it is necessary to go to a Priest to be forgiven, when I can kneel in the street, if the need arises, to ask forgiveness of Christ. Yes, he said that they have the power to forgive in his name (his disciples) but it is not very clear that he meant that he was sending them out, as God sent him, to forgive, or to appoint others who may forgive, in Christ's name.
Christs words, to me, do not state "Seek thee out the representative of God in this world, so that I might hear your words through this vessel and forgive thee thy trespasses.
In this respect, the misconception truly is that the Catholic Church tries to put distance between Christ and the people.
A horrid idea, but one that is given much weight in Protestant Circles, at times...
I guess I simply do not see how your words state that it is necessary to go to a Priest to be forgiven,
I would have thought that this verse from Scripture would have answered this....
2 Cor. 5:18
But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
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Yes, he said that they have the power to forgive in his name (his disciples) but it is not very clear that he meant that he was sending them out, as God sent him, to forgive, or to appoint others who may forgive, in Christ's name.
What then does the following Scripture tell you?
as the Father sent me, so I send you
Was forgivness part of Christ's mission? Did Jesus forgive in person as the Son of Man, or did He tell folks to ask for forgivness in another way?
If you can say that Christ did not mean to send out his apostles to forgive as Christ forgave, what else could Christ have not meant by this mission? Scripture is best interpreted in light of Scripture. Before Jesus charges the apostles with this mission, he breaths on them. A very important happening, as God only breathed upon man one other time. And when this happens, a significant transformation takes place. Before Jesus charges the apostles with this mission, he tells them that what ever they bind will be bound in Heaven, and what ever they loose will be loosed in Heaven. Why do so if Jesus meant not for the apostles to carry on his mission of forgiveness?
Jesus also says But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins. This is a very powerful verse as it is telling us that Jesus is forgiving sins as man and not as God. And such authority we see is given to the apostles.
Scripture also gives us a clear picture of the apostles Paul forgiving sins in persona Christi, that is in the person of Christ...
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.
James 5:15-16 -
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
In verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.
Also, consider that even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.
--- "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism Let us get an important thing straight:
I never meant to say that Christ did not give authority to his Apostles to forgive sins. A statement like that would be foolhardy. It is the passing this on to the priests that doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, Christ breathed on them, in similar fashion to God breathing life into Adam. However, did Adam in turn breathe on others, and bring a construct of his own to life?
And to them Christ DID give the ministry of reconciliation - I never argued that point. Again, that would be pointless.
As for the scripture "As God sends me, so I send you" that states simply, to me, that they were sent to go out and bless people, and forgive their sins, as that is what Christ was talking about at the time. I get no hint from this of Christ stating that they should appoint others to do as such.
Is there a place in the Bible where Christ says "Appoint others with the authority I have given unto thee" or the like? This, of course, is getting into asking why a priest has the position he does, which many people are wary about - an injustice to many priests, as it was the few who transgressed in unkind fashion...
I guess it just seems like it was the instatement of a ritual, almost in rememberance of the relationship of Christ with his disciples.
As well, he states that the son of man has power to forgive sins - does this not mean that you are not supposed to hide sins to yourself, and must share them to be forgiven, though it isn't with a specific person? And when speaking of confessing your sins one to another, this does not identify a specific figure.
Do you understand how this can be confusing, and how it can be seen in a different light? Perhaps it is only because people wish to see it in a different light. It just seems quite clear in the way I state it, while your reasoning appears to take that extra leap to include a clergy member.
