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Little Zooey
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Noise for a beginner
Well I did manage to get out with the camera last Friday, but only after rushing our rooster Doodle to the vet and having him PTS.  (Please note - I did try to use the other word, but it's been blanked out. I know rooster is the American version) I nearly didn't go, but in the end I'm glad I did as I was very pleased with what I took along the South Bank. Most of them are colour only images, but I would appreciate some advice regarding noise. I won my digital camera last year and things like colour noise and purple fringing are still new to me.
I was photographing some skateboarders with graffiti underneath a building, so I had to push the ISO to 4000. There doesn't seem to be much noise in the graffiti, which was lit by the low sun, but everything in the shadows is awful. Raw processing doesn't seem to get rid of it and neither does the tool in PS Elements.
I've come up with a solution for these by using Martin's technique to darken and reduce saturation on the floor and paint that back in - it's also worked on the skateboarder's grey trousers. I've had to use the heal tool on his bare back as that was skin tones covered in green and magenta blotches. I have some more taken at the same time and would appreciate any advice. I know the images are colour, but I value your input.
Oooh... and I have an entry for this month's competition too, so the trip was really productive 
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17/Aug/09, 9:28 am
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Little Zooey
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Re: Noise for a beginner
Oh well. A week later and no replies. I did try reading the other noise thread, but it seemed to generate into a discussion on the performance of different Canon cameras and most of it went over my head.
I don't get time to read magazines or search the internet. I barely get time to post in here, but I was serious about learning from people whose work I respect.
I guess I'll spend what little time I have learning on my own by trial and error. Thanks to everyone for the past year or so.
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25/Aug/09, 3:12 pm
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Bill Allsopp
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Re: Noise for a beginner
quote:
Little Zooey wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the past year or so.
Don't be like that, if I knew anything about the subject I'd help. But I am fortunate to own a camera producing very little noise.
The people on here give their time freely but still have jobs to do and people to care for If their schedules don;t fit with yours that's tough for you but for all you know it's a damn sight tougher for them. Perhaps a polite reminder might get the info you need. You produce good work and we value our members so please stay in and bump the post if it's not getting the response you need.
Last edited by Bill Allsopp, 25/Aug/09, 3:52 pm
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Bill Allsopp
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25/Aug/09, 3:37 pm
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crimbo
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Re: Noise for a beginner
Hello LZ ... I have just got back on the Board after about a week...
push up the image and crops of the areas you have concern about...
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25/Aug/09, 7:36 pm
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I Simonius
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Re: Noise for a beginner
I'm still struggling with noise so Im no help IM afraid - except the advice I got which was simply to exposemore 'to the right' i.e. even if the ISO is high you still need to get a 'bright' pic i.e. exposed for the shadows.
Fixing noise once it's there is still a complete mystery to me - that swhy I didnt reply
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Mac PPC Dual 2.3, 6GB Ram, LR2.5 , PsCS4 11.0.1, 5Dmk2 fw 1.1.0,
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25/Aug/09, 8:49 pm
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Little Zooey
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Re: Noise for a beginner
Sorry Bill (and everyone else). I'm not having a particularly good time myself. I lost my Mum last year and have no family left. No kids, only the animals and sadly they don't live for ever. We get up at 5.20 every morning for the 3 hour round of feeding and cleaning and ditto after work. We generally don't finish until 9.30 at night and at the moment we have to get up around 2.00 in the morning to treat a sick ferret. Is that enough problems? 
As for the noise - like I said, I won the camera and in fact I had no intention of going digital. I try reading stuff on the internet in my lunch break, but it's hard when people assume you know a bit - like ACR, NR, NN and Lightroom. I tried yesterday and gave up after a few minutes, still none the wiser. The camera I have is a Sony A700, which I believe is fairly good.
First of all can anyone explain why noise happens? Also, why do Sony say you can happily shoot with an ISO of 6400 and get little noise when other people are saying it appears from as low as 800?
I'm afraid I grew up with film and my gut instinct is to underexpose. I have seen the tip "expose to the right", but can you really get detail back in the bright areas?
Is my technique a valid one? I was lucky in that the floor was dark grey and painting in areas with a 50% desaturation helped a lot. The skin was truly awful though and as well as the green and magenta blotches there were what appeared to be horzontal and vertical groups of sharp pixels. Is that another problem and does it have a name?
I will try and post an example tonight. Will I get shot at dawn for uploading a colour image? 
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26/Aug/09, 11:22 am
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Bill Allsopp
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Re: Noise for a beginner
Hey, glad you posted again. Life can be very hard sometimes, so we understand.
Why does noise happen? Good question to which I have no answer.
Can you get detail back in bright areas yes if you shoot RAW. I posted the following on another forum in answer to a question on exposure bracketing.
"The range a sensor can record depends a good deal on the sensor. I am fortunate enough to have a 1Dsmk3 and whilst the perceived visible latitude is c. 7-8 stops the scope to open up blocked shadows and blown whites in RAW is considerably more.
For this reason when I bracket I usually go for about 2 stops +/-. Anything less is available in the RAW anyway. Now having worked on raw files from cheaper cameras I know from experience the available range can be much less, especially at the ends.
Quick answer, there are no rules except the ones you find work for you. "
If I'm using a tripod I bracket to cover dark areas (where noise occurs) if your camera has a bracketing function like mine you can even get away with it hand held to cover bright skies unless there are a lot of trees protruding up into a bright sky.
Hop this helps.
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Bill Allsopp
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http://www.britishlandscapephotographs.co.uk
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26/Aug/09, 1:32 pm
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I Simonius
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Re: Noise for a beginner
This is where I got what little I know about it: lots to read but explains it better than I ever could 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm
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Mac PPC Dual 2.3, 6GB Ram, LR2.5 , PsCS4 11.0.1, 5Dmk2 fw 1.1.0,
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26/Aug/09, 1:54 pm
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Little Zooey
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Re: Noise for a beginner
Having used Ilford film exclusively for the last few years I could also ask why is grain beautiful and noise ugly?
Thank you for the tips. Perhaps the biggest one should be "engage brain before clicking". I'm an instinctive photographer. If I think too hard I get in a panic and more than once I've had to give myself a good ticking off. No.. seriously I mean it. I once locked myself in a portaloo in Edinburgh because I'd forgotten to switch the camera on. If I can get my head in the right place then it just seems to happen.
Maybe it's just a girl thing 
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26/Aug/09, 3:20 pm
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Bill Allsopp
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Re: Noise for a beginner
A tip Martin has passed on is if noise is a problem add grain. As a film user this may appeal to you.
Instead of localised noise overall grain. Works for some.
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Bill Allsopp
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26/Aug/09, 3:27 pm
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